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group finder fail


Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
10.08.2012 , 08:24 AM | #11
The LFG tool for operations is totally broken. If someone leaves or disconnects it's often hard to find a replacement via the queue and sometimes it just breaks the whole thing and you no longer are eligible for the comm box reward at the end.

You can't add anyone outside of the queue either. We lost someone in a LFG operation and I couldn't get my guildy to join.

Worst, if a boss is dead in the operation it's really hard to find a replacement. We were missing 2 dps on another failed fun (because 2 people up and left). We got one guildy to come so he queue'd as dps. He got another person in general to queue as dps. Guess what happened? Nothing! It wouldn't fill us up. That makes 0 sense Bioware. 0 sense. What's the point of finding replacements if we're missing 2 dps and there are 2 dps queue'd and neither one is locked out of SM KP?

Lastly, the pool in LFG's can be very, very small because BW fails to recognize the importance of Cross-Server options in LFG and Warzones. They try to mask it behind "well, you lose accountability if you never see that person again", but that's a really weak excuse.

In the end, 3 failed runs because someone would drop part of the way through and we couldn't get a replacement for all of the reasons above. Honestly Bioware, you fail at this. L2code properly. Maybe ask the people at Trion who worked on Rift how to do the job right.

For now, I'm done queue'ing for Bioware's failed excuse for a LFR tool.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
10.08.2012 , 11:41 AM | #12
I've pugged HM Ops before and the only time they were not a major heartache was when the majority of the group were friends / guildies in vent and we only pugged a few missing dps or healer spots.

Every time I've tried a HM Ops with pug tanks, it was a disaster.

If HM Ops were added to the group finder, an epic level of complaints would appear, overwhelming this board about problems completing these ops. Then eventually, Bioware would end up nerfing HM Ops mechanics so that more pugs were capable of finishing it.

No thanks.

I did like the idea of locking the T2 ops and unlocking it when players finish the first ones. I'm less convinced this would actually work, based on some recent pug experiences.

If you're trying to do progression raiding, and you don't want to get in a guild, you should friend people that you've met pugging HM FPs and then invite them for HM Ops runs.

FlyinSpaghetti's Avatar


FlyinSpaghetti
10.08.2012 , 12:24 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I've pugged HM Ops before and the only time they were not a major heartache was when the majority of the group were friends / guildies in vent and we only pugged a few missing dps or healer spots.

Every time I've tried a HM Ops with pug tanks, it was a disaster.

If HM Ops were added to the group finder, an epic level of complaints would appear, overwhelming this board about problems completing these ops. Then eventually, Bioware would end up nerfing HM Ops mechanics so that more pugs were capable of finishing it.

No thanks.

I did like the idea of locking the T2 ops and unlocking it when players finish the first ones. I'm less convinced this would actually work, based on some recent pug experiences.

If you're trying to do progression raiding, and you don't want to get in a guild, you should friend people that you've met pugging HM FPs and then invite them for HM Ops runs.
Which comes back to my idea of including it in group finder but locking it to progression.

Look at diablo 3 for example, anyone can play inferno by purely pugging whether you can beat inferno by pugging is another thing but everyone has a chance of getting there and beating it if they and their group are good enough. If you fail it's not the end of the world as you can go back and try with someone else another time.

The problem with swtor it doesn't give you that choice, as soon as you hit HM ops level and want to up your columi to rakata gear you have to manually find a group which I find in most cases isn't suited for pugging because as soon as someone rage quits unless someone can find a friend or guildie then the whole group is pretty much screwed, and there's also the option of joining a guild which a lot of people haven't got time to dedicate to and just want to try the content without hassle. Forming your own ops groups should be mainly reserved for friends or guilds to group up (i.e. people who are most likely to meet up again if they can't beat it that time) while randoms should be able to press a button to find a group full of like-minds on the same lockout and tier of op.

Forcing people to make private ops groups just to pug a HM op sounds a bit ironic in my eyes. Puggers need a random button for all content (with ops tier and lockout progression) while manual grouping needs to be saved for people likely to meet again.
Quote: Originally Posted by BaronV View Post
Thats no moon... thats a CARTEL COIN!

mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
10.08.2012 , 12:47 PM | #14
Group finder works fine for what it does, it just is not designed for what you are looking for and I for one would not use it for that anyways. Still BioWare does offer a solution for those that would like to progress beyond SM OPS, they allow us to join guilds and alliances. I run ops all the time with my guild and also with members of our alliance. At least I know if I am with either that there are rules and people and guilds are accountable for their behavior. I have ran on two PUG groups. LF Geared Healer is my least favorite phase in general chat. I showed up and the only person in the entire group that was geared or augmented was my healer. When my sawbones has more HP than either Tank in HMEC, there is a problem.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
10.08.2012 , 01:07 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
...

Forcing people to make private ops groups just to pug a HM op sounds a bit ironic in my eyes. Puggers need a random button for all content (with ops tier and lockout progression) while manual grouping needs to be saved for people likely to meet again.
In my personal opinion, based on experience, is that a pug formed through the group finder for HM Ops is more likely to fail than it is to succeed.

The story mode ops are pretty simple. It doesn't take a lot of effort to get the group coordinated enough to pull off these encounters. A HM ops requires more coordination, a tighter level of dps and a better understanding of mechanics.

If you're not a hard-core raider, and you don't have the ops on farm already, you are could to have to work at the encounters several times before you can get through it. A pug T/Z will take several attempts just to get the tank swap mechanics smooth enough to pull it off. After several wipes people are going to get frustrated, quit and complain on the forums.

This will result in 437th threads complaining about how impossible it is to do HM Ops through the group finder, with 1,043 responses saying a) you suck or b) learn the mechanics or c) get a guild or d) yeah nerf it it's too hard.

When I first started HM EC, I had a guild and we wiped dozens of times on Toth/Zorn, racking up impressive repair bills. When we got our heads out of our *****es and actually figured out what we were doing, we were then able to progress to Firebrand/Stormcaller (surprisingly easy by comparison) and then Vorgoth. We're not hard-core server-first raiders -- but we eventually mastered that content.

But let's be realistic, you're not going to get hard-core raiders in the group finder. You're going to get the guys that need 37 attempts at T/Z before they figure it out. No pug can survive that.

FlyinSpaghetti's Avatar


FlyinSpaghetti
10.08.2012 , 02:57 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
In my personal opinion, based on experience, is that a pug formed through the group finder for HM Ops is more likely to fail than it is to succeed.

The story mode ops are pretty simple. It doesn't take a lot of effort to get the group coordinated enough to pull off these encounters. A HM ops requires more coordination, a tighter level of dps and a better understanding of mechanics.

If you're not a hard-core raider, and you don't have the ops on farm already, you are could to have to work at the encounters several times before you can get through it. A pug T/Z will take several attempts just to get the tank swap mechanics smooth enough to pull it off. After several wipes people are going to get frustrated, quit and complain on the forums.

This will result in 437th threads complaining about how impossible it is to do HM Ops through the group finder, with 1,043 responses saying a) you suck or b) learn the mechanics or c) get a guild or d) yeah nerf it it's too hard.

When I first started HM EC, I had a guild and we wiped dozens of times on Toth/Zorn, racking up impressive repair bills. When we got our heads out of our *****es and actually figured out what we were doing, we were then able to progress to Firebrand/Stormcaller (surprisingly easy by comparison) and then Vorgoth. We're not hard-core server-first raiders -- but we eventually mastered that content.

But let's be realistic, you're not going to get hard-core raiders in the group finder. You're going to get the guys that need 37 attempts at T/Z before they figure it out. No pug can survive that.
The reason they wouldn't be able to figure it out if BW just lumped the HM's in is because there would be no progression check. Had a funny experience last week when I resubbed, we had a pug group going for EV HM with most players with at least full columi if not BH/rakata. You'd think it would be smooth sailing but when we got to gharg one of the players who kept on standing under his pounce said he never done this boss before and soon after a wipe three players rage quit.

Instances like that could be avoided if pugs were actually forced to complete the first set of story modes a number of times first before they could progress onto the harder content. Going a privately made pug HM op group is just as bad as the option being in group finder, so why not add it to group finder anyway and force people to complete the easier content a number of times before they progress onto the harder stuff?

At least then you'll know that people have completed all the content up until then rather than joining a group blind.
Quote: Originally Posted by BaronV View Post
Thats no moon... thats a CARTEL COIN!

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
10.08.2012 , 03:13 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
...

Instances like that could be avoided if pugs were actually forced to complete the first set of story modes a number of times first before they could progress onto the harder content. Going a privately made pug HM op group is just as bad as the option being in group finder, so why not add it to group finder anyway and force people to complete the easier content a number of times before they progress onto the harder stuff?

...
This could work. A while back when someone suggested it, it seemed like a good idea.

But more recently, all of my attempts to pug a tank position in a HM Ops fell apart. The only times my HM ops have gone smoothly is when I'm with tanks I know and we pug the dps or healer spot.

I fear that if Bioware implemented HM Ops in the group finder (even with your solution above) it would result in many angry people complaining, resulting in nerfs, which imo would be worse than the angry people that are currently forced to build up a friends list to do HM Ops (or join a guild).

FlyinSpaghetti's Avatar


FlyinSpaghetti
10.09.2012 , 08:41 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
This could work. A while back when someone suggested it, it seemed like a good idea.

But more recently, all of my attempts to pug a tank position in a HM Ops fell apart. The only times my HM ops have gone smoothly is when I'm with tanks I know and we pug the dps or healer spot.

I fear that if Bioware implemented HM Ops in the group finder (even with your solution above) it would result in many angry people complaining, resulting in nerfs, which imo would be worse than the angry people that are currently forced to build up a friends list to do HM Ops (or join a guild).
Then they could add a pop up warning that the content is (obviously) more challenging than the standard content. They are called hard modes for a reason, they are meant to be a challenge.. a grind to get to the top.

Problem is everyone expects to fly through them without effort, I've seen people rage quit after one wipe even though the boss was down to the last 7k or so. For premade non-pug ops fair enough you should get a goal of not wiping often but if you join a pug group you shouldn't expect to fly through content and be prepared for a few wipes.

You can't really force people to join guilds they don't want to or manually put together a group just to play through the extra content.

IMO the content should be available for anyone of that level, premade group or automatic via group finder (with a sensible progression system in place also).
Quote: Originally Posted by BaronV View Post
Thats no moon... thats a CARTEL COIN!