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Five steps to make PvP more enjoyable and rewarding

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Five steps to make PvP more enjoyable and rewarding

Furballer's Avatar


Furballer
10.07.2012 , 05:35 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by TheronFett View Post
You have 4 unnecessary steps.

1) Remove gear-based PvP.

The end. This pretty much solves all of the other issues you listed. PvP doesn't need to be a completely separate gear grind. It's just another MMO time sink that forces players who want to enjoy both aspects of the game to grind out another set of gear.

Allow players to use whatever moddable shell they want, and have armorings/mods available for purchase so that players can customize stats to their liking with reasonable thresholds in mind. Tanks should be able to mod for higher HP, while DPS should be able to mod for higher damage. Put Alacrity stats on healer gear so that it actually means something.

Keep the token system for unique PvP moddable armor shells for aesthetics only! Level the playing field.
Thats a nice idea, but why dps should run more dmg?
PvP in this game just exist on DoTs and thats it. Its like a Egoshooter its no skill or what else, its just mindless, and make me remember stupid Nintendo/Gameboy games...Oldschool

They did the same mistake like they did at SWG, they count on kids....dont know if you can make money out of that, but...dont know what to say.

You need longer PvP fights, lower the DoT dmg, DoTs were once just a supporter to bite some health, and keep them in combat while they covered around the corner. Next thing are stuns, ...Im 24/7 stunned, and that makes me think about going outside and have fun watching after Woman wasting time by making me belive i got a chance

kk...youre right about having a good setup + skill but no dmg increase for dps (would make it a one hit PvP). Tanks and Heals , do they even exist? A fultime Tank cant take out a fulltime Healer, a fulltime Healer cant take a fulltime Tank...guess thats the only balance we got ingame.

Belly's Avatar


Belly
10.07.2012 , 05:49 AM | #12
The new recruit gear isn't all that bad IMO, You'll still get roflstomped buy full war heroes, but it's not the huge gap it was with the Mk-1 gear. And even only playing a couple of hours you can get 1-2 battlemaster pieces a day. Augment those bad boys, and you're good to go.
Larcen 50(ish) Scoundrel Scrapper/Sawbones "They see me rollin...they hatin. They whining and sayin that I need some nerfin"
The Progenitor
And loads and loads of alts

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
10.07.2012 , 05:55 AM | #13
I pretty much agree with everyone the OP has to say. Gear is a issue in PVP and I have debunked every counter-argument I came across.

I especially agree that there shouldn't be a limit on warzone comms or ranked comms at all. Leveling 1-49 and being able to save up for a lot of WH armor when you hit 50 should be a thing.

Monterone's Avatar


Monterone
10.07.2012 , 10:38 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by TheronFett View Post
You have 4 unnecessary steps.

1) Remove gear-based PvP.

The end. This pretty much solves all of the other issues you listed. PvP doesn't need to be a completely separate gear grind. It's just another MMO time sink that forces players who want to enjoy both aspects of the game to grind out another set of gear.

Allow players to use whatever moddable shell they want, and have armorings/mods available for purchase so that players can customize stats to their liking with reasonable thresholds in mind. Tanks should be able to mod for higher HP, while DPS should be able to mod for higher damage. Put Alacrity stats on healer gear so that it actually means something.

Keep the token system for unique PvP moddable armor shells for aesthetics only! Level the playing field.
I like your idea bud, and I think it would be awesome to have a system like that in place.

However, I don't think they have the resources to do such a major overhaul, at least not in a time frame that changes have to be made in. When I was thinking of a fix, I was also thinking of a way that it could be implemented by a small focus team, in a short period of time.

Removing Recruit gear could be done in one fell swoop. Subbing BM gear as free gear at 50 probably wouldn't take much longer since the system is already in place -- no one will have to work over the weekend for that one. Then you assign one guy to re do all the prices in the database, and guessing that there are only two to three hundred PvP items total, across the eight classes (BM and WH), it would probably take one or two days of work on the database to update the pricing. Removing inventory caps should also be a breeze. Coding the reduction of stats inside ops and fps would probably take the most work, but overall I think 1-4 could all be achieved in one week, with a team of 2-3 people.

Thanks for all the comments guys, good info.
Sominette . Saminette
Pot5 > Harbinger

Briljin's Avatar


Briljin
10.07.2012 , 11:06 AM | #15
1 - No, the "recruit" set should always be upgraded to keep in par with the current sets. So right now it should be the old Centurion sets. When the full set of E-WH comes out, then the recruit set should be upgraded to BM.

2 - No to free BM, just upgrade recruit gear to stay in line and a "Hell no!" to your "hidden stat". PvP armor is already at a disadvantage in PvE settings, there is no point in making it even worse. Unless of course you want to apply a similar "hidden stat" to do the same for PvE armor used in PvP...

3 - No, getting commendations is quick and easy. If you do nothing but the dailies and weekly, you will gain 1k of each. Then average in about 75 a game over 21 games (figuring in some wins for weekly) and you get another 1500ish commendations. You can get two BW and 1 WH every two weeks doing almost nothing.

Gorgonzye's Avatar


Gorgonzye
10.07.2012 , 11:24 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Briljin View Post
1 - No, the "recruit" set should always be upgraded to keep in par with the current sets. So right now it should be the old Centurion sets. When the full set of E-WH comes out, then the recruit set should be upgraded to BM.

2 - No to free BM, just upgrade recruit gear to stay in line and a "Hell no!" to your "hidden stat". PvP armor is already at a disadvantage in PvE settings, there is no point in making it even worse. Unless of course you want to apply a similar "hidden stat" to do the same for PvE armor used in PvP...

3 - No, getting commendations is quick and easy. If you do nothing but the dailies and weekly, you will gain 1k of each. Then average in about 75 a game over 21 games (figuring in some wins for weekly) and you get another 1500ish commendations. You can get two BW and 1 WH every two weeks doing almost nothing.
Agreed, it is too easy to get Battlemaster gear even if you only do your dailies. The moment you remove the reward for participation is the moment you lose 99% of the PvP players, at which point we will have to constantly see "Que up for WZ" in the fleet, and thread whining about how few people are actually playing in the warzones.

Monterone's Avatar


Monterone
10.08.2012 , 01:10 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Briljin View Post
1 - No, the "recruit" set should always be upgraded to keep in par with the current sets. So right now it should be the old Centurion sets. When the full set of E-WH comes out, then the recruit set should be upgraded to BM.

2 - No to free BM, just upgrade recruit gear to stay in line and a "Hell no!" to your "hidden stat". PvP armor is already at a disadvantage in PvE settings, there is no point in making it even worse. Unless of course you want to apply a similar "hidden stat" to do the same for PvE armor used in PvP...

3 - No, getting commendations is quick and easy. If you do nothing but the dailies and weekly, you will gain 1k of each. Then average in about 75 a game over 21 games (figuring in some wins for weekly) and you get another 1500ish commendations. You can get two BW and 1 WH every two weeks doing almost nothing.
Yes, I understand the three tiers of PvP armor we've always had, but unfortunately that is part of the reason we are losing fellow players and BW is losing customers. PvE and PvP always had an equal amount of tiers, a mirror system -- but why should the dev team, or us, be stuck on keeping the same broken system until the game shuts down? Hence the suggestions for improvements which could bring some people back and make PvP more fun for current ones. Unfortunately, without other people to play the game with, it's just a really expensive single player game. And to say it's fine as it is, well that's just being stubborn, even when faced with facts that PvP players don't agree with that, about a million of them.

And really, why is there even need to make new tiers of PvP armor? This is wasting resources they don't have. Why create EWH weapons? Have two tiers only, one free one you get handed at 50 and another you work towards for 3 weeks to a month to complete a whole set, WH. That's all it should take in my opinion. And leave it at those two sets, polish them, itemize them better and leave them be. They are not to be used in PvE due to the hidden stat limit, so they really are PvP only items that you spend one month per character on. Some folks will still spend a couple of months on full itemized WH. So if you JUST want to PvP, that's a half a year of work and you have 4 characters that are good to use in competitive PvP. They won't lose any customers over this, it's more realistic and promotes playing alts, instead of getting fed up with one character and quitting.

Hidden stats on PvE armor as well? Sure, why not. I don't think it necessary but if applying it to only one set would bother people, then it really makes no difference. PvE gear is already bad for PvP and you would get a free BM set, so wearing PvE gear in the WZs would truly be newbish, but why not.

The only reason for the idea of hidden stat that makes the armor ineffective in PvE is because BM is really not a bad set, and it's effective for leisurely questing. You don't want people who wear greens hit 50, just go get a free set of BM gear and never do PvP and just use it as an upgrade for PvE. That's why it needs a hidden stat on it -- you get free armor, but you get it for one reason, to use in PvP.

PvE, FPs and OPs are about teamwork and story, and enjoying the SW universe, sharing the cool background, figuring out the mechanics of the fights and ultimately being rewarded for it. A gear grind in ops is unavoidable and as an idea still works. Mirroring the system for PvP is amateur, PvP needs no crazy grind, it needs more even tiers of armor that create less of a gap and make everyone competitive.

And your last point, your figures make complete sense... if one can play 10 hours a day. I'd say an average it takes a half an hour to get one warzone pop and finish it. That's an hour for two wzs, for an average of 150 comms an hour, using your numbers. 10 hours of play a day, for 1500 comms or 500 ranked. Three days of that, comprising of an average 30 hours (this is someone's full work week at a job), and you can afford the cheapest WH item. The most expensive one will take 7 times longer than that at 3500 ranked comms. So for some people, who average only 75 a game, it will take them 21 days of 10 hours a day to get enough ranked for one EWH weapon. Three weeks of having a job. Factor in quest rewards and it's two weeks of a job. This is getting commendations quick and easy? I think we have different definitions of 'quick and easy'.

Thanks for your comments guys.
Sominette . Saminette
Pot5 > Harbinger

manchusabre's Avatar


manchusabre
10.08.2012 , 01:28 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by TheronFett View Post
You have 4 unnecessary steps.

1) Remove gear-based PvP.

The end. This pretty much solves all of the other issues you listed. PvP doesn't need to be a completely separate gear grind. It's just another MMO time sink that forces players who want to enjoy both aspects of the game to grind out another set of gear.

Allow players to use whatever moddable shell they want, and have armorings/mods available for purchase so that players can customize stats to their liking with reasonable thresholds in mind. Tanks should be able to mod for higher HP, while DPS should be able to mod for higher damage. Put Alacrity stats on healer gear so that it actually means something.

Keep the token system for unique PvP moddable armor shells for aesthetics only! Level the playing field.
Yep. That's why quite a few people don't even do pvp right there. And here I thought they weren't trying to make pvp feel like a separate game.

SpaniardInfinity's Avatar


SpaniardInfinity
10.08.2012 , 05:56 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Monterone View Post
Yes, I understand the three tiers of PvP armor we've always had, but unfortunately that is part of the reason we are losing fellow players and BW is losing customers. PvE and PvP always had an equal amount of tiers, a mirror system -- but why should the dev team, or us, be stuck on keeping the same broken system until the game shuts down? Hence the suggestions for improvements which could bring some people back and make PvP more fun for current ones. Unfortunately, without other people to play the game with, it's just a really expensive single player game. And to say it's fine as it is, well that's just being stubborn, even when faced with facts that PvP players don't agree with that, about a million of them.

And really, why is there even need to make new tiers of PvP armor? This is wasting resources they don't have. Why create EWH weapons? Have two tiers only, one free one you get handed at 50 and another you work towards for 3 weeks to a month to complete a whole set, WH. That's all it should take in my opinion. And leave it at those two sets, polish them, itemize them better and leave them be. They are not to be used in PvE due to the hidden stat limit, so they really are PvP only items that you spend one month per character on. Some folks will still spend a couple of months on full itemized WH. So if you JUST want to PvP, that's a half a year of work and you have 4 characters that are good to use in competitive PvP. They won't lose any customers over this, it's more realistic and promotes playing alts, instead of getting fed up with one character and quitting.
I think the only reason there are new tiers of PvP gear is simply to avoid the point in time where PvE gear does eventually become better than PvP gear. Theoretically, if you keep introducing new tiers of PvE gear, there will eventually be a time where it breaks even with the penalty for no expertise. I'm not going to say that is going to occur at any time in the future, but I suspect that's where Bioware was going when they aimed to separate PvE and PvP gear with a stat like Expertise.

So for that reason, if you have only two tiers of gear in PvP and continue to add new tiers of PvE, there is going to need to be some consideration for what happens with the later tiers on operation gear. There are obviously ways to fix this, like putting higher emphasis on Expertise when we finally reach that bridge (do something like 1.2 and implement a new Expertise curve if we start having such problems).

Beyond that, I agree with you. I prefer skill-based PvP over gear-based PvP every day of the week. If you aren't going to stop adding tiers of PvP gear, at the very least matchmaking should try and keep you against others at your effective level. It just doesn't make sense, because it puts you at unnecessary disadvantage. For anyone that actually enjoys competition (and not just ganking people), that should make sense. It's not a challenge to defeat someone two tiers beneath you. It's actually pretty funny when someone upsets the War Hero, but that's usually that player outperforming their gear (and is a sign of things to come).
Aux "Spaniard" Wargarde (Rank 2400+ Combat Medic) | Reighner the Relentless (Conqueror Bodyguard)
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Monterone's Avatar


Monterone
10.08.2012 , 06:58 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by SpaniardInfinity View Post
I think the only reason there are new tiers of PvP gear is simply to avoid the point in time where PvE gear does eventually become better than PvP gear. Theoretically, if you keep introducing new tiers of PvE gear, there will eventually be a time where it breaks even with the penalty for no expertise. I'm not going to say that is going to occur at any time in the future, but I suspect that's where Bioware was going when they aimed to separate PvE and PvP gear with a stat like Expertise.

So for that reason, if you have only two tiers of gear in PvP and continue to add new tiers of PvE, there is going to need to be some consideration for what happens with the later tiers on operation gear. There are obviously ways to fix this, like putting higher emphasis on Expertise when we finally reach that bridge (do something like 1.2 and implement a new Expertise curve if we start having such problems).

Beyond that, I agree with you. I prefer skill-based PvP over gear-based PvP every day of the week. If you aren't going to stop adding tiers of PvP gear, at the very least matchmaking should try and keep you against others at your effective level. It just doesn't make sense, because it puts you at unnecessary disadvantage. For anyone that actually enjoys competition (and not just ganking people), that should make sense. It's not a challenge to defeat someone two tiers beneath you. It's actually pretty funny when someone upsets the War Hero, but that's usually that player outperforming their gear (and is a sign of things to come).
Very true man, and I had that in mind but did not want to make the long reply any longer.

I was thinking they could write a script that could upgrade all PvP gear stats by a percentage. Meaning for the gear to remain competitive and not get outshined by raid gear, every once in a while they'd run the script and upgrade ALL stats on it by say 10% -- AR, main stats and endurance, secondary stats, everything gets a percentage boost, expertise stats even. Patch it when you introduce a new tier of PvE gear.

Do this to both the BM tier and the WH tier. Now there are still only 2 tiers but the highest tier is on par with the highest tier of PvE gear.

I don't know whether this is easy to do or not, but it could definitely be made to work.
Sominette . Saminette
Pot5 > Harbinger