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Imperial Intelligence (IA ending spoliers)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
Imperial Intelligence (IA ending spoliers)

Ranadiel_Marius's Avatar


Ranadiel_Marius
10.06.2012 , 06:15 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Path-x View Post
You are all clinging to some speculative details while missing the main thing. The whole Star Cabal power is ridiculous and dumb to say the least.

There is no way the whole dark council could be manipulated into doing something as stupid as disbanding Imperial Intelligence. That equals to letting someone convince you to cut off your right hand in normal circumstances. No one is dumb enough to do it.

The worst thing about it is that in the game they haven't even explained how Star Cabal actually pulled it off. I can't blame them because there is no sane or reasonable scenario to explain it. But they shouldn't have made such a stupid story point in the first place.

On top of that, there is no way they could manipulate the Jedi Order.

In conclusion, until BW comes up with some sane and convincing explanations on how Star Cabal manipulated the Sith and the Jedi Order to that extent (which I highly doubt they exists) the Star Cabal will be under "lame" and "unacceptable" category.
Manipulate the information flow and you can pretty much convince anyone of anything. Whisper to the Dark COuncil that Intellegence is not pulling their weight. That the agents are running off chasing things that aren't helping the war effort. That no one is over seeing the agents because all the analysts have gone into comas. Then just show them that their own personal forces are low on trained soldiers. How they are going to react is pretty obvious when presented with that information.

I don't recall any specific instances of the Jedi being manipulated, but still just control the flow of information and you control a person's perception of reality and therefore how they react.
A Primer on the Emperor(yes this does have spoiler)

One Night Stands and Similar Encounter (spoilers again, and I am probably going to repost this sometime in the future)

Mutive's Avatar


Mutive
10.06.2012 , 07:07 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Ranadiel_Marius View Post
Manipulate the information flow and you can pretty much convince anyone of anything.
That's really the whole point of agent, isn't it?

You're not tough. You're not an all powerful demi-god.

But you control who knows what. And that's more powerful than a lightsaber being wielded by someone with Force leap.

Look at Issen 4 as an example. The reason the war gets started is because there's a Republic base, they surrender to the Imperials, then you wander in (pursing Hunter, based on some intelligence W2/Keeper has gathered), and they are all found massacred. (Hunter's doing, again.)

Totally makes sense from the Republic's POV to base a war on this. Some innocent colonists surrender and are massacred by an agent of the Empire.

The Empire, of course, is furious because, from their POV, a rogue SIS agent pretty much arranged the whole thing to make them look bad.

You're both played.

(And this may happen in other storylines. For instance, the cold war starts to heat up for all classes in Chapter 2. Why? All kinds of reasons, depending on class. But some of that mysterious information both sides keep getting as to where the key targets are, etc. may be being slipped to them by the Star Cabal.)

That's the point of the Star Cabal. They keep pulling strings until everyone is killing everyone.

(And the only reason that they haven't already pulled this off, according to the game, is that they haven't really wanted to. Up until some time in the recent past, they've just tried to prevent either the Jedi or Sith from getting too powerful. It was only lately that they decided "let's kill them all". And that took some prep work, which is only approved 6 months prior to the start of Chapter 3.)

Path-x's Avatar


Path-x
10.06.2012 , 08:08 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Ranadiel_Marius View Post
Manipulate the information flow and you can pretty much convince anyone of anything. Whisper to the Dark COuncil that Intellegence is not pulling their weight. That the agents are running off chasing things that aren't helping the war effort.
That all sound perfectly reasonable IF you assume the Sith are either extremely stupid or have the naivety of a 6 years old child.

The information has a weight and reliability attached to it. To every intelligence there is an enemy counter-intelligence which is trying to confuse with false information and is constantly manipulating the information flow anyway (you don't need Star Cabal for that). If you get a spam email from John Doe telling you that your bank account was hacked and that you need to provide him with your account password you probably won't do it...

Information reliability aside, the Imperial Intelligence is a complex organisation. Its role isn't merely supporting war effort with information. The equally important task is to keep the Empire together (like NKVD, Stasi or Gestapo in the corresponding police states). So disbanding it because it didn't provide the expected results to war effort because it put effort in eliminating the internal enemies is ludicrous...
Jedi: You won the day, Sith. So, kill me if you must.
Warrior: I must.

Ranadiel_Marius's Avatar


Ranadiel_Marius
10.07.2012 , 06:24 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Path-x View Post
That all sound perfectly reasonable IF you assume the Sith are either extremely stupid or have the naivety of a 6 years old child.

The information has a weight and reliability attached to it. To every intelligence there is an enemy counter-intelligence which is trying to confuse with false information and is constantly manipulating the information flow anyway (you don't need Star Cabal for that). If you get a spam email from John Doe telling you that your bank account was hacked and that you need to provide him with your account password you probably won't do it...

Information reliability aside, the Imperial Intelligence is a complex organisation. Its role isn't merely supporting war effort with information. The equally important task is to keep the Empire together (like NKVD, Stasi or Gestapo in the corresponding police states). So disbanding it because it didn't provide the expected results to war effort because it put effort in eliminating the internal enemies is ludicrous...
After my last post, it occured to me how ridiculously easy getting the Dark Council to disband the Star Cabal. The Black Codex has the security files to access every single aspect of Imperial Intellegence's files. So if the Star Cabal wanted to get Imperial Intellegence disbanded, they just need to alter the reports sent from Imperial Intellegence to the Dark Council. Make it appear they have been dedicating twice as much time on hunting down the Star Cabal and remove references to most of the evidence found in support of the existence of the Star Cabal. So it appears that Imperial Intellegence is spending all of their resources hunting something which doesn't exist. The reliability isn't an issue because it is coming directly from Intellegence. When the Minister of Intellegence tries to explain that the "Star Cabal" hacked the reports he would either look like he is lying to save his own skin or that Intellegence is incompetent. For good measure the Star Cabal could further alter the reports to make it seem like the amount of resources dedicated to hunting the Star Cabal increased when Keeper and the Watchers went into a coma.

And while Intellegence might be a complex organization, if the Star Cabal can alter the records to make it seem that it is ignoring its other tasks for its ghost hunt then that just gives the Dark Council more reason to disband them in order to put those duties under their control so that they are sure that the task gets accomplished.
A Primer on the Emperor(yes this does have spoiler)

One Night Stands and Similar Encounter (spoilers again, and I am probably going to repost this sometime in the future)

Path-x's Avatar


Path-x
10.07.2012 , 07:22 AM | #25
It is the Minister that reports to the Council to begin with. And even if the files were altered the chiefs of the operational divisions who are making those reports would notice that very quickly. Anything that is coming from Imperial Intelligence goes through them. And even if there was in fact inefficiency inside the Imperial Intelligence that is no where near a reason to dismantle the whole organization which is vital to the Empire. In that case you simply change the leadership. You don't destroy the priceless infrastructure of spies and informants and make yourself blind.

No matter how you spin it this thing will remain ludicrous.
Jedi: You won the day, Sith. So, kill me if you must.
Warrior: I must.

Temeluchus's Avatar


Temeluchus
10.07.2012 , 01:27 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Path-x View Post
It is the Minister that reports to the Council to begin with. And even if the files were altered the chiefs of the operational divisions who are making those reports would notice that very quickly. Anything that is coming from Imperial Intelligence goes through them. And even if there was in fact inefficiency inside the Imperial Intelligence that is no where near a reason to dismantle the whole organization which is vital to the Empire. In that case you simply change the leadership. You don't destroy the priceless infrastructure of spies and informants and make yourself blind.

No matter how you spin it this thing will remain ludicrous.
Office of Strategic Services,look it up if you want a RL example to see how and why an extremely effective organization, that was vital to a war effort, can be decimated, torn down and reorganized into a shadow of it's former self.
"Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.

Path-x's Avatar


Path-x
10.07.2012 , 03:29 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Temeluchus View Post
Office of Strategic Services,look it up if you want a RL example to see how and why an extremely effective organization, that was vital to a war effort, can be decimated, torn down and reorganized into a shadow of it's former self.
Extremely bad and inappropriate example. First of all OSS was formed during the wartime for a sole purpose to support the war and had a very short life. It did not have any real infrastructure. A lot of intelligence came from other organizations and various resistance movements. In many cases all it did was steal the credit for the information. And most importantly OSS did not have any role in internal security. Its dissolution had no affect because after the war it became redundant. As I stated before, a proper example for Imperial Intelligence would be NKVD or SS. While a modern example would be CIA and FBI in one.
Jedi: You won the day, Sith. So, kill me if you must.
Warrior: I must.

errant_knight's Avatar


errant_knight
10.07.2012 , 04:47 PM | #28
The above assumes that the Dark Council ever sees the codex, of course

Kyriosgundam's Avatar


Kyriosgundam
10.07.2012 , 05:15 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Path-x View Post
Extremely bad and inappropriate example. First of all OSS was formed during the wartime for a sole purpose to support the war and had a very short life. It did not have any real infrastructure. A lot of intelligence came from other organizations and various resistance movements. In many cases all it did was steal the credit for the information. And most importantly OSS did not have any role in internal security. Its dissolution had no affect because after the war it became redundant. As I stated before, a proper example for Imperial Intelligence would be NKVD or SS. While a modern example would be CIA and FBI in one.
In comparing Imperial Intelligence to the CIA and FBI is just dumb. Imperial Intelligence can be compared more to the KGB of the former Soviet Union (which used to be known as the NKVD) which has become the FSB and RVS. Also the OSS eventually became what we know as the NSA (National Security Agency) which with the exception of some civilians is an entirely Military Organization. As to the disbanding of Imperial Intelligence whos to say that it isnt remade as a compeletely different Organization or split into multiple organizations its happened before (the remaking of the NKVD into the KGB, thenbeing split into the FSB and RVS).
"The Ability to speak does not make you intelligent"-Qui-Gon
"Much to learn you still have"-Yoda
"Impressive......Most Impressive"-Darth Vader
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes"-Obi-Wan

Temeluchus's Avatar


Temeluchus
10.07.2012 , 05:47 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Path-x View Post
Extremely bad and inappropriate example. First of all OSS was formed during the wartime for a sole purpose to support the war and had a very short life. It did not have any real infrastructure. A lot of intelligence came from other organizations and various resistance movements. In many cases all it did was steal the credit for the information. And most importantly OSS did not have any role in internal security. Its dissolution had no affect because after the war it became redundant. As I stated before, a proper example for Imperial Intelligence would be NKVD or SS. While a modern example would be CIA and FBI in one.
Apparently you don't know the history of the OSS very well, it's neither inappropriate nor a bad example at all.

To this day it is still considered to be one of the most effective intelligence agencies to America, many PMCs and private intelligence companies or "think tanks" use their charter and operations model to this day. Spend any time in the US Military SpecOps community or US intelligence community and you'd know the OSS and it's operators are still revered.

The OSS was dissolved because of the friction and mutual dislike between Truman and General Donovan. You can claim any reason you'd like, but the OSS became one of many political casualties in America.

You other points are valid or have some semi validity and your comment about them stealing credit for success(sounds like any other intelligence arm or even Imperial intelligence itself now doesn't it?) so I won't argue with them.

My overall point was a very useful agency that could have evolved and been more relevant and useful than it's successor got taken down by backroom deals and behind the scenes maneuvering, I wasn't concerned with the various minutiae of each agency and how they are alike or differ. I forgot this was the internet and you have to connect the dots instead of assuming people can do it on their own.



Quote:
In comparing Imperial Intelligence to the CIA and FBI is just dumb. Imperial Intelligence can be compared more to the KGB of the former Soviet Union (which used to be known as the NKVD) which has become the FSB and RVS. Also the OSS eventually became what we know as the NSA (National Security Agency) which with the exception of some civilians is an entirely Military Organization. As to the disbanding of Imperial Intelligence whos to say that it isnt remade as a compeletely different Organization or split into multiple organizations its happened before (the remaking of the NKVD into the KGB, thenbeing split into the FSB and RVS)
.

First of all the OSS is the spiritual predecessor to the CIA, not the NSA. The intelligence branch that reformed out of the ashes of the OSS was the CIG which is the direct predecessor to the CIA.

The NSA deals in SIGNIT,data encryption, wiretapping and the like. The CIA has its hands in SIGNIT as well as HUMINT,paramilitary operations, Pys Ops etc. Imperial intelligence surely had a division like the NSA but Imperial Intelligence's directive wasn't solely this.

I'm not really sure were you were going with the NSA being a military organization as Imperial Intelligence is at the very least a paramilitary organization with heavy ties to the Imperial military if not outright the intelligence command of the Imperial military and operating under it's infrastructure.

What happened to the NKVD and then it's successors is a good example in general, and probably more fitting given the politics of the Sith Empire and USSR.
"Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.