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Respect Revan


MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
10.07.2012 , 06:10 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Scelestus View Post
I am a big Revan fan. He is awesome -- and that is partly because he is not overpowered.

It's like Superman. A character is pretty boring if he can't be beaten, if you don't fear for him. Revan is a bad***, but he isn't unbeatable.

I agree with OP. Revan could duel all these bigshots for a bit. That is my opinion. It is also my opinion that he doesn't have a huge chance of beating them. It isn't a set-in-stone thing, however; everyone makes mistakes, everyone gets distracted. And at the level these guys are at, one distraction can be the end of a fight. Look at how Palpatine -- the Super Sith -- went down. He didn't see Vader coming. So just because one character is more powerful with the Force -- whether that "power" is measured in knowledge or raw strength -- or is a better duelist, that doesn't mean they win 100% of the time. Just a little something to keep in mind.

Setting aside for the moment the tricky issue of whether or not Revan's "Force Balancing/Juggling" is canon, you need to look at whether balance is all that great in a fight, a single fight. Being "balanced," it is unlikely that Revan could hope to match Palpatine or Luke in any Force duels. Revan is said to be skilled in a variety of diverse Force techniques -- meaning lightning AND healing, which I consider diverse when they're found in the grasp of a single individual -- but, to my knowledge, isn't said to have mastered any of them (I could be wrong there, though). So Sidious could "out-lightning" him, because Revan likely hasn't focused nearly as much on his Force lightning skills as Sidious has.

In regards to Ki-Adi-Mundi beating Revan -- I must say I'm skeptical. Yes, Ki-Adi-Mundi is a powerful member of what is said to be one of the greatest Jedi Councils of all time, but Revan went up against Darth Malak when Malak had the power of the Star Forge behind him, and won. Revan went up against (spoiler for the Revan novel and at least one TOR class story)
Spoiler
So I'm not so certain Ki-Adi-Mundi, great Jedi though he is, could reliably be said to have a good chance of beating Revan.

As said before, Revan wasn't at his prime when he appeared on the Foundry, and from what I've seen, most of the Versus threads state that participants are considered to be at their very best at the moment of the fight. Plus (WARNING: OPINION AHEAD), I think the fight between the Four Speeder-Bikers of the Empire and Reborn Revan is waaaaaay too complicated to draw much from. There is no CANON "choreography," if you will, of how that fight went down. Some of the Four Speeder-Bikers could have ended up in kolto tanks from that bout; the Agent could have sniped Revan in the face while he was monologueing; we don't know. All we know about that, is that somehow, the Four Speeder-Bikers won.

Let me address the Kreia thing...
Here's how I see it. Kreia adored Revan. Kreia saw big things for the Exile. Kreia lied so much that is impossible to say, "Kreia said so, so that's PROOF!" Yes, at the end of her life, Kreia made some predictions. That she wasn't wrong about those predictions is not proof that she didn't lie about the other stuff she said at that time, defeated or no. It is possible to lie in one breath and tell the truth in the next

In regards to a Revan vs. Malgus (or Satele/other NPC of the time) match-up:
Malgus is a beast. I don't know nearly as much about him as I'd like. But I DO know Revan rather well, and I'd say Malgus is the underdog in this fight, because, let's face it, Malgus is not and never was a PC All kidding aside, I'm thinking Revan has as good a chance of beating Malgus as Malgus has of beating him. Revan is a good enough lightsaber duelist that he can hold his own against an opponent long enough for SOMETHING to happen that would either distract him or distract Malgus. Same with Force abilities and general fortitude. I think whoever wavered first would lose, as they are both skilled enough to take advantage of any openings. My opinion, not too many facts, so take it or leave it
(As far as PC vs Revan battles go, at the end of Act III, I'd give it to Revan; but remember, the PCs are not yet at their prime.)

TL;DNR:
Revan good. Revan bad. Revan beast. But Revan no Luke-level, and that a GOOD thing.

Sorry for the walls of text
Thank God! A sympathiser! I've been feeling all alone out here. You speak the truth.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
10.07.2012 , 06:16 AM | #52
Aurbere: When it comes to Love, you and I just aren't talking about the same thing so I'll leave that alone.

But you cannot make a statement like saying all of the Jedi you named are better then Revan. You COULD say that the Jedi of Revan's era where generally not as good as the Jedi you named. But there's nothing that says 100% of the Jedi Masters of that time would be better then Revan. In my OPINION Revan is better then most of these guys. With the exception of Yoda, Mace Windu, Luke (and perhaps a few men from New Jedi Order),

But hey, this isn't about my opinion.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
10.07.2012 , 06:22 AM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
You have argued facts, but only facts about Revan. And some of what was posted was only your opinion. What I am trying to tell you is that canonically, Revan can not hold his own against Jedi and Sith of the future. I've stated it numerous times.

I wasn't trying to come off as attacking your opinion, but when it comes to educating people you must use facts and not opinion.
Canonically, there's nothing that ever said that. You can say it all you want but that doesn't make it fact.

Also, I've not been "educating" people with my opinion. I don't know where you got that from.

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Aurbere
10.07.2012 , 09:19 AM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Aurbere: When it comes to Love, you and I just aren't talking about the same thing so I'll leave that alone.

But you cannot make a statement like saying all of the Jedi you named are better then Revan. You COULD say that the Jedi of Revan's era where generally not as good as the Jedi you named. But there's nothing that says 100% of the Jedi Masters of that time would be better then Revan. In my OPINION Revan is better then most of these guys. With the exception of Yoda, Mace Windu, Luke (and perhaps a few men from New Jedi Order),

But hey, this isn't about my opinion.
Yes that is your opinion, but you can't argue with facts. GL and Chee have stated multiple times that the PT Jedi and the subsequent New Jedi Order are the best. And canon proves it. I'm going to make a thread that talks about this so I wont spoil anything for you. Just know that it is G-canon that the PT kicks OR butt and I'll set out to prove that in my next thread.

I respect your opinion, but PT beating OR is fact. You can have your opinion and I will respect it. Just don't accuse me of posting my opinion when I have been posting facts. The only opinion I posted was Plo Koon having a good chance of beating Mace Windu in a duel. THAT is my opinion and the only opinion that I will put forth.

Anyway, we've argued for six pages so lets agree to disagree and be done with it.
Added Chapter 61 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
10.07.2012 , 11:00 AM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Brandon: I would agree with you for the most part. Here's where our thoughts vary:

I don't think that Luke and Sidious would wipe the floor with Revan. Granted I think they'd beat him, but not like a landslide victory as you say. However, I think Revan could come pretty close with Sidious. That's all my OPINION. I don't think anyone has to agree with this specific thought of mine because it isn't supported by canon.

And I also think that using both sides of the force would be poweful as well as upredictable. But you've got to realize that he isn't using the passions of the dark side to their fullest. Revan is only using passions like love and compassion (this is canon 'cause it said so in the book). So it's not as contradictory as some may think.
Lets debate. What does Revan, canon and ability wise, have that can top Sidious?

Sidious beat Yoda, and Yoda is canonly the most powerful Jedi pre-Luke. And Revan in his prime is Jedi. This is stated by Leland Chee himself.

Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."

This was taken from Leland Chee himself. Sidious was more powerful than Yoda. Yoda realized that directly facing Sidious was doomed to failure. It also states that Sidious was too powerful for him to defeat. Nowhere does it state that Yoda wasn't in his prime. It pretty much comes down to this. Yoda may be the most powerful Jedi pre-Luke. However, Sidious was simply a more powerful Sith. If you watch the scenes you'll notice that except in two instances it almost seemed as if Sidious was playing with him. The only two times he seemed worried was when he was being pushed back in a saber lock and also when Yoda was absorbing his force lightning.
(Off-topic: If only Rhyltran was still on the Forums)

And EU Sidious is just outright godly in terms of the Dark-Side. Creating Force Storms that consumed planets and New Republic Fleets.


And Luke is canonically 200% of Sidious.

And for those that are gonna bring up Sid's duel with Mace. Because someone will.

Quote:
Notice in the saber duel between Sidious and Windu when Sidious was being forced back the entire time he seemed very unhappy. If it was his personally not to take things seriously he'd be smiling and laughing during that too but he isn't. It's also been confirmed that Sidious did lose the lightsaber bout with mace but that's understandable given that's Mace windu's strongest element. In revenge of the sith it stated that just before Sidious stopped with the lightning Windu was going to lose his grip on his saber.

So.. it goes like this..

Sidious saber combat < Windu's saber combat.

Sidious Saber skill = Yoda's saber skill

Sidious use of the force > Both Windu and Yoda.

Note during Windu's duel with Sidious he gave himself more fully to his form Vaapad than ever before. He tapped into what he was afraid would corrupt him. Making him far more powerful than before. It's likely in that moment in his duel with Sidious Windu was truly at his best and most likely rivaled Yoda at that specific point. Maybe even stronger for the moment. I believe (and this part is speculation) if he did win against Sidious he probably would have fallen at that point
You can argue with anyone else about Revan being pinned against any Opponent EXCEPT for Sidious and Luke because its literally canon they would wipe the floor with anyone besides eachother or Abeloth...
Hapan: "This creature has information that could lead us to a woman who has been kidnapped. We will get that information."
Luke: "This woman is a citizen of the New Republic, and if you do not take your hands off her, I will take your hands off you."

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
10.07.2012 , 11:05 AM | #56
Sure, we can agree to disagree. I just don't want readers to be confused.

You are using a fallacy when you say that ALL Jedi of the New Jedi Order are better the ALL Jedi of the Old Republic (specifically Revan). This fallacy is called generalization I believe. No one ever said that that 100% of all Jedi of the New Republic are better then 100% of the Jedi of the Old Republic.

What they meant is that the Jedi of the New Republic are GENERALLY better then that of the Old Republic. This does not mean that guys like Ki-Adi-Mundi are necessarily better then Revan. There's nothing that ever said that. Granted Ki-Adi-Mundi may possibly be better then Revan (although not in my OPINION), but there is no such evidence to prove it. Enough said.

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MasterMe
10.07.2012 , 11:08 AM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by BrandonSM View Post
Lets debate. What does Revan, canon and ability wise, have that can top Sidious?

Sidious beat Yoda, and Yoda is canonly the most powerful Jedi pre-Luke. And Revan in his prime is Jedi. This is stated by Leland Chee himself.



(Off-topic: If only Rhyltran was still on the Forums)

And EU Sidious is just outright godly in terms of the Dark-Side. Creating Force Storms that consumed planets and New Republic Fleets.


And Luke is canonically 200% of Sidious.

And for those that are gonna bring up Sid's duel with Mace. Because someone will.



You can argue with anyone else about Revan being pinned against any Opponent EXCEPT for Sidious and Luke because its literally canon they would wipe the floor with anyone besides eachother or Abeloth...
What you say may be true, but like I've said before, this is waaaaaay off topic. All I'm saying is that Revan is in the same ball park as guys like Kun, Bane, and Malgus. This is a modest statement and I feel it is definately supported by canon.

BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
10.07.2012 , 11:12 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Sure, we can agree to disagree. I just don't want readers to be confused.

.
This is part where I don't like Revanites.


You were just telling another poster to stop with their opinions and bring fact/canon statements. I brought canon fact and you completely dismissed it saying "we can agree to disagree."

This is seen in allot of Revanites, asking for canon fact and then when somebody brings it, its completely dismissed.


And please don't be insulted by the term "Revanite". Its just a name, like the Exile fans are the Exiles or something like that.
Hapan: "This creature has information that could lead us to a woman who has been kidnapped. We will get that information."
Luke: "This woman is a citizen of the New Republic, and if you do not take your hands off her, I will take your hands off you."

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.07.2012 , 11:12 AM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Sure, we can agree to disagree. I just don't want readers to be confused.

You are using a fallacy when you say that ALL Jedi of the New Jedi Order are better the ALL Jedi of the Old Republic (specifically Revan). This fallacy is called generalization I believe. No one ever said that that 100% of all Jedi of the New Republic are better then 100% of the Jedi of the Old Republic.

What they meant is that the Jedi of the New Republic are GENERALLY better then that of the Old Republic. This does not mean that guys like Ki-Adi-Mundi are necessarily better then Revan. There's nothing that ever said that. Granted Ki-Adi-Mundi may possibly be better then Revan (although not in my OPINION), but there is no such evidence to prove it. Enough said.
Alright let's just leave it at that. You have your view and I have mine. I'm sure someone else will pick up where I left off, but I'm gonna just leave it here. Fun debate no matter what was said.
Added Chapter 61 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
10.07.2012 , 11:15 AM | #60
Ah, a light bulb came up in my head.

Love is a emotion. Emotion isn't part of the light side. So therefore, if you use love, then you're using a unorthodox force belief.

You say that Revan cannot use both sides of the force. Perhaps this statement isn't as contraversial as you think.

Take Luke for example. Did he not love Mara Jade? Is that right?

If this is so, they why do you refuse to believe that Revan can't weild the force as the novel says? Have you ever read the novel? Because if you think about it both Luke and Revan use love. If you can believe Revan using the force as stated, then why can't you believe Revan could do the same?

Listen, even if Revan didn't use both sides he is still a powerful being.