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Respect Revan


MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
10.06.2012 , 02:09 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Exactly. We all have favorite characters, but a real Star Wars fan knows when his character is outmatched. i know Plo Koon couldn't beat the likes of Darth Sidious and Luke Skywalker or some of the NJO Jedi. He can beat a good number of characters, but that's not the point. the point is, you aren't a real fan if you don't accept the fact that your fav character isn't all-powerful.
I can respect any fan of my man Plo. That guys is wicked.

Brainiacblue's Avatar


Brainiacblue
10.06.2012 , 02:17 PM | #12
At his best Revan probably would have won as he had the greatest knowledge of the Force at out of all of them and had the greatest mind of them all - he is compared to Thrawn, the most cunning strategest the galaxy has ever seen, in some canon and Ordo praises him endlessly - and he was Mandalore!

However as he is in the game - he is clearly insane, riven to madness by 300 years of the Emperor and would lose fairly quickly, but not easily.

So it depends which stage of Revan you are talking about, him at his greatest or at his end.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
10.06.2012 , 02:20 PM | #13
I'm talking about Revan shortly after his defeat of Darth Malak. That would have been his prime I believe.

Airmo's Avatar


Airmo
10.06.2012 , 02:23 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post

My final point on the Malgus vs. Malak fight. Let me put it this way. In the Foundry Kallig, The Emperor's Wrath, The Grand Champion and Cipher Nine were not at there best and they beat Revan. (I'm gonna be honest, I was under-leveled and that fight was so easy.) Then Malgus goes rogue and it takes the four Imperial classes at their best to beat him. This is when Kallig has his ghosts (if Dark Side is canon), the Emperor's Wrath is at his full power (at this point) and the Grand Champion and Cipher Nine have access to the best equipment that they can get (along with refined battle experience). So it stands to reason that if it takes the four Imperial classes at full power to beat Malgus, when they were only roughly half that fight Revan, then Malgus could take Revan and Malak on at the same time and wreck them.

EDIT: As to the thread title, I do respect Revan. I like Revan, but I will not lie about him just to make him seem cooler. In fact, the truth makes him seem like a dud.
Not really sure I would count the fight at The Foundry to be a fair gauge of Revan's strength. He just got out of the prison he was in for 300 years, in which he was fighting arguably one of the most powerful Sith ever in a mind battle that he needed a force ghost' help as to not get mind screwed in. Even with the Exile's help he was pretty much crazy and not thinking or acting clearly, I don't believe he could use the force to the best of his ability in that state. I don't think anyone could be at they're best when put through something that rough.

Not saying those four would for sure lose if Revan was at his best, but we can't assume they would for sure win either. So in my opinion I don't think we should assume Malgus would destroy him and Malak.
"Darkness is a friend, an ally. Darkness allows us to understand others, to see what they value when they believe no one else is looking. It allows us to be honest with ourselves, to express those values that we would disavow in the light. The light blinds us. It is only in the dark that we see clearly."

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
10.06.2012 , 03:04 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
What do you mean beat Lucas? I never said Drew's novel was good (although I did enjoy it). The fact is, Drew's book got published and thus it should be reckonized as Star Wars fact, regardless of what you think about his writing.
Lucas stated you can't use both sides of the force, Chee said the same, a LOT of in-universe characters stated the same, a hell of a lot of other sources back this up to and it isn't as clear cut as, if it gets published under the Lucas license it's auto-canon, if something in a novel, game, etc... contradicts either George Lucas, T-Canon or G-Canon(or all three) that particular piece is either a 'misconception' due to it being impossible, with any other possibility that doesn't contradict higher tier canon being the actual canon or it's retconned all together.

TCW: Revival spoilers incoming:
Spoiler

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.06.2012 , 03:22 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
1: He's outclassed by future duelists? How's that? That sounds like a opinion not based on canon to me. If he is the best duelist of his day, then he could hold his own with most anyone. I'm not saying he could beat anyone, but I can't think of anyone who would win by a landslide when fighting Revan.

2: You're right, he did have a greater sized army then the Mandos. But the magnitude at which he beat them was still very impressive. And like I said before, Canderous Ordo, who had studied war his entire life, praised Revan over and over again. Need I say more on that subject?

3: Yes, Kreia lied a lot. But even she wouldn't lie without reason! Why would she tell the Exile lies about Revan? How does that help her? Unless you can prove she wasn't telling the truth (which you can't) then you've got nothing there.

4: Revan DID use both sides! It states so in the book! Yes, it contradicts what some other sources say, but what makes those sources correct? This is one of those errors in writing about something as broad as Star Wars. Sources sometimes contradict eachother. If you looked around, there are so many contradictory things in Star Wars it's crazy!
In a story, things don't always fit together too nicely. This is something you have to accept.

5: You're taking the order of the game XP like that? That's seriously flawed thinking! Here's an example why:

Compare the average droid you fight at level 50 to some random Jedi you fight at level 10. The droid is a lot more powerful isn't he? Do think that the writer's are trying to say that the droid is better then the Jedi in reality? Heck no! They just want you to fight a Jedi early on. For this same reason, your logic is flawed.

Lastly, let me make it clear that I never said Revan was better the Kun, Vader, or Bane. If I said that, then it wouldn't be based on canon. What is based on canon is that Revan IS in the same ball park as these guys. He's no pushover. That's canon whether you like it or not. I only said that it's my OPINION that Revan was better. So let's not get hung up on who would win. I'm just saying that he wouldn't be beaten easily.
1. Luke Skywalker, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, Mace Windu, Yoda, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Cin Drallig, Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn, Darth Caedus, Jaina Solo... need I go on. All of these people are off the top of my head on who could beat Revan in a Lightsaber duel. Notice how all of them are from a future era. That my friend is canon.

2. Canderous Ordo praised Revan for joining the fight and defeating the Mandalorians. But that doens't change the fact that Revan didn't come up with his tactics on his own. He used Mandalorian tactics and his forces to gain the victory.

3. To push Meetra to be stronger. That was the main purpose (imo) of it. She put Meetra next to Revan and said that Revan was better. Notice how she later says that Meetra is her greatest student.

4. Again you misunderstand because of the wording of the book. And, yes there are contradictory subjects in Star Wars, but you can't contradict G-canon. And every G-canon source dictates that using both sides is impossible.

5. Yes I am. For story purposes only. At the time of the Foundry fight, the Imperial classes were not at there best. However, after that fight they become more powerful. An example of that is Kallig 'eating' more Force ghosts. After the fight with Malgus, Kallig could take Revan alone. he is one of the most powerful DC members. I did not take this from a level perspective as it has no meaning to me, I made my argument from a story timeline perspective.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
10.06.2012 , 04:27 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
1. Luke Skywalker, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, Mace Windu, Yoda, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Cin Drallig, Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn, Darth Caedus, Jaina Solo... need I go on. All of these people are off the top of my head on who could beat Revan in a Lightsaber duel. Notice how all of them are from a future era. That my friend is canon.

2. Canderous Ordo praised Revan for joining the fight and defeating the Mandalorians. But that doens't change the fact that Revan didn't come up with his tactics on his own. He used Mandalorian tactics and his forces to gain the victory.

3. To push Meetra to be stronger. That was the main purpose (imo) of it. She put Meetra next to Revan and said that Revan was better. Notice how she later says that Meetra is her greatest student.

4. Again you misunderstand because of the wording of the book. And, yes there are contradictory subjects in Star Wars, but you can't contradict G-canon. And every G-canon source dictates that using both sides is impossible.

5. Yes I am. For story purposes only. At the time of the Foundry fight, the Imperial classes were not at there best. However, after that fight they become more powerful. An example of that is Kallig 'eating' more Force ghosts. After the fight with Malgus, Kallig could take Revan alone. he is one of the most powerful DC members. I did not take this from a level perspective as it has no meaning to me, I made my argument from a story timeline perspective.
1: Are you kidding me? You can't prove that any of the named duelists are better Revan! Does it say anywhere specifically that these people are better then Revan? No! So please don't state it like it's fact. Yes, I would agree that SOME of the named duelists are better then Revan, but that is an opinion. If you can name where it said these people are better duelists then Revan I'll be shocked.

2: How do you know Revan didn't make up his own tactics? You have no proof of that either! And what if he did use Mando tactics? They worked! I'm not visiting this subject again because like I said earlier he was praised by a man who studied war his whole life. If you don't want to reckognize that fact, then I give up.

3: Again; where's your proof? Unless you can proove that Kreia's intentions where as you've stated, then we must take what she said literally.

4: This whole canon thing is an impossible debate. I'm choosing to see the Revan novel as fact, and you aren't. Did Lucas say himself (and I don't mean through a character in a book) that it's impossible to use both sides of the force? I think not. I think he (and other writers) said that it is impossible through characters. If this is so, then it means nothing. If Luke Skywalker said that it was impossible to use both light and dark sides of the force, does that mean it is? No! It means it's impossible to the best of his knowledge, which is veryh different. Luke isn't all knowing, no one is. Did it ever occur to you that Revan may have figured something out that none of the other characters have been able to comprehend?

5: I've already said why your logic for why Malgus is stronger fthen Revan is flawed. Look back at my example and explain it. I'm not even saying that Malgus isn't stronger, but I am saying that the game XP system doesn't proove it.

I'd appreciate it if you listed you opinions as opinions rather then facts.

6: Once again, I'm not saying Revan is all powerful. I AM saying that he's far better then the push over you guys make him out to be. Seriously, do you think that Ki-Adi-Mundi could beat Revan? I'd like to know what canon sources (if any) lead you to this crazy conclusion.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
10.06.2012 , 04:37 PM | #18
Rayla; you're absolutely right about the Clone Wars! Explain to me who decides who killed Gallia? The only person who decides is Lucas. If he states who killed her then it'd be fact. But until Lucas actually says so HIMSELF, then it's up to you. That's how I'd describe being able to use both sides of the force. Until Lucas SAYS (and not through a character because characters aren't all knowing) that using both sides is impossible, then it is possible. Has Lucas, or any writer ever SAID that it's impossible? Just because some character in a book says it's impossible, doesn't mean it's impossible.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.06.2012 , 04:41 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Rayla; you're absolutely right about the Clone Wars! Explain to me who decides who killed Gallia? The only person who decides is Lucas. If he states who killed her then it'd be fact. But until Lucas actually says so HIMSELF, then it's up to you. That's how I'd describe being able to use both sides of the force. Until Lucas SAYS (and not through a character because characters aren't all knowing) that using both sides is impossible, then it is possible. Has Lucas, or any writer ever SAID that it's impossible? Just because some character in a book says it's impossible, doesn't mean it's impossible.
I think Lucas and Chee have said so. That would make it G-Canon.

EDIT: Note that I said I think. I'll have to do research or someone more knowledgeable in this area would have to answer you. Rayla is pretty much the defender of canon so she would be better suited to answering that question.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
10.06.2012 , 05:20 PM | #20
Your entire Original Post is listing Revan's Pros and none of his cons while you list every opponent's cons and no pros.


First off Revan was ONE of the greatest duelists of his time, while Exar Kun was THE Greatest Duelist of the Jedi definitely an extremely talented Sith.


Using both sides of the Force isn't that powerful, considering that there are many light-sided only or dark-sided only that would wipe the floor with Revan like Sidious or Luke(I seriously hope you acknowledge that they would wipe the floor with Revan. At least those two! Sure you can argue with anyone else but with those guys there is no arguement unless your pinning them against eachother or Abeloth which is very debatable).

The reason so many had a problem with Revan using both sides at the same time is because it practically violated G-Canon. George has stated that the Light-side is the Force and Dark-Side is the Cancer and that for their to be balance is to have no Dark-Side. So for Revan to be both at the same time its like... being completely healthy and having the worst disease in the world. Its like being serene and having all the rage in the world. Do you see where I am coming from?

But until it is in fact retconned or Leland Chee/Lucas come out and say its flat out non-canon were going to have acknowledge the events in that book.
Hapan: "This creature has information that could lead us to a woman who has been kidnapped. We will get that information."
Luke: "This woman is a citizen of the New Republic, and if you do not take your hands off her, I will take your hands off you."