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Rooting for TOR to fail won't bring back SWG

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Rooting for TOR to fail won't bring back SWG

Xienive's Avatar


Xienive
10.06.2012 , 06:17 AM | #21
SWG lacked one very important thing, advertisement.
No disintegrations!
As you wish...

kevlarto's Avatar


kevlarto
10.06.2012 , 08:24 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalfear View Post
While I agree TOR failing will not suddenly rebound back to SWG

SWG was dead long before TOR was in the works and probably should have closed doors years before TOR release.

So nothing bringing back SWG as a commercial product!
The few remaining fans will have to settle themselves with the EMU versions being worked on.

But sorry your wrong about this being the last Star Wars MMO.

It might take another decade and maybe even a new movie somewhere down the line but there will be another SW MMORPG because anyone with any business sense can tell you
Star Wars done right = HUGE PROFIT MARGIN

Star Wars just hasnt been done right yet in the MMORPG genre

Much of the problem is the 2 groups of devs that designed the 2 titles restricted themselves to other game designs rather then create its own design.

TOR is just WOW with voice overs and more story. It could have been so much more but the devs wanted to make WOW in space and thats what they made. PERIOD.

SWG was just Ultima Online in space. ANYONE that played UO from launch could see the blatant design copies between the 2 games. Hell they even took a class from UO and put it in SWG despite it not even remotely fitting with the Star Wars lore.

What a Star Wars MMORPG needs is its own identity thats purely Star Wars.

Its ok to borrow from other games but both TOR and SWG went over the ledge and turned borrowing into copying.

And both games have pretty much crashed and burned financially because of it.

The sad thing about TOR is, if the developers had even bothered reading their own forums. There was a early outpouring from the fan base (many who still post here today) on what game they wanted. A few people asked for outrageous things like perm death and courpse looting (and other ideas that will never fly in MMORPGs) but on a whole if the devs had looked, read, discussed, and designed from those early posts, none of the back lash you see today would be happening.

I REALLY hope who ever makes the next MMORPG (forget Star Wars, just the next MMORPG title) has learned from the EA/BW debacle that ignoreing your fan base and not communicating with them (on your forums, not your twitter, not your facebook, but on your FORUMS) is almost a sure fired way to ensure failure in this genre. Communication is key.

Listen to your cust base!

Not the brown nosers and suck ups as they add nothing relevant or worthwhile to the discussion.
Not the haters that scream everything sucks but never say why

Listen to your cust base that present ideas and complaints and explain both fully so there is no misunderstanding.

And most of all, dont allow those same brown nosers and suck up to troll your subscriber base when they do complain.
CARE what someone has to say when they take the time to post why they leaving. Their posting is a last diotch cry out to you saying they want to like the game but this is whats wrong. Allowing trolls to openly bash and insult them for putting the final post up hurts you far more and far longer then banning the trolls ever will.

Communication is key in this genre!

There will be another SW mmorpg, its to promising of a title not to be tried again.
I just hope the next group LEARN from the 2 previous groups on what and how they screwed up and how to avoid it all themselves.

(in my geakiest Star Wars dream I dream of a MMORPG with 100s of planets and thriving cantinas of gamblers and swoop racers. Adventures everywhere. Open world PVP where the very planet is the prize. Where skill and ability trump stuns and equipment. Where you pick and choose your companions and you are lead on adventures as you learn about them and explore their storylines. And so very very very much more)

TOR had the right idea conceptually. Unfortunately their devs saw TOR as WOW with a Star Wars shell over top of it.

The MMORPG genre requires and DESERVES much more imaginative and exciting creators and designers IMO!
I agree, if you look around today I see several mmo's that are in devolpment, that say Theme park/Sandbox hybrid, and those games are from indie studios, I hope they can see them through. If there ever is another Star wars mmo, I think Lucas Arts may do it in house, since they revamped their gaming division they are not contracting out much or any at all in the future. I think the next big mmo will come from an indie studio, that realizes the wow model of gaming is getting old and tired for allot of people, the main stream studio's make these games off a formula and as we see in TOR they did not vary to far off course, if TOR would have launched 3 or 4 years ago it would have been a huge hit.. the main stream studios seem to stiffle creatvity and lack in inovation these days. Where the indie studio for the most part thrives off creativity and inovation.

I am Sure we will see some Star Wars stand alone games like 1313 coming up next years. I wish they could get some elements in TOR that make us feel like our toons live in the world and not just playing through the world, that is the biggest issue with most of the mmo's as of late. I guess we will see what the future holds so many thing are changin..
Do not dwell in the past, do not not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment.

Expectations lead to suffering

Foobert's Avatar


Foobert
10.06.2012 , 08:42 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by VegaPhone View Post
Listening to the fan base is an illusion set up to make the product seem more genuine as a modern product.

They said Win 7 was designed by the Windows users with their complaints and recommendations. However, its really just the devs of any product taking good ideas and putting them in a product or otherwise that means they did not think of the idea.

Now with swtor, the ideas the fans were spewing repeatedly on the forums 2 years before launch were a lot of old ideas.

The only new ideas was people wanting, was a hybrid MMO. That was the only thing that seems unique other than the expected content.

And BW did not make the expected content for their MMO without the need for a fan base to tell them. For example, pazaak at release, duel arenas with a tournament system, more than 3 WZs, a promise to release a large WZ soon, customization that was not so penalizing and more custom gear and rewards from FP or end game content. More races for character creation, and wierder looking aliens, Swoop racing instead of space combat as a mini game. 3d space combat in the future instead of wasting development on more space missions. OPen world pvp with objectives, and rewards, and how its important for pvpers to run into each other while questing, and not necessarily in questing areas but have areas that have open world objectives. Player ship decoration, game optimization for large scale pvp. Illum with actual mechanics rather than an open space and 'buffs'. And there can be more expected content that they dont even need us fans to say, but they left out.

ANd Bw even claims that their desgin of thier game was what the fans voiced. That they wanted story. Or something like that, I am still flabbergasted from where this perception comes. And how apparently the swtor fans wanted a single player game first, and pay $15 a month for it, while waiting for the MMO to be developed. Did anyone want that?

I am guessing not, and even if fans wanted story to be good, I am sure none fo them said they wanted to trade out the MMO features to have that.

I am sorry to say, but the devs did not listen, and instead misheard the fans, and were too busy making their own game without knowing how to make an MMO, and thats the problem, even if a lot wanted good story, they should have never given up the MMO part since that is what the development for swtor is actually based on.

edit: Also maybe if they listened more to the fans from what they said they were developing, it would have been better, because I dont remember anyone asking for good side questing, but of course they wanted good story. So that is something the BW devs decided to add, and put a lot of effort into it as well, which cost development production towards other projects. And, unfortunately for a lot of people it was not worth it. They did not want to spend $15 a month for what they felt was more of a single player experience.

The problem is not just alternative content that made swtor feel limiting due to expectations (especially for pvp), but also how solo friendly it was, and very themeparkish without a dynamic feel. For example day/night cycle, it would have made a big difference.
Which they did. Go back and watch the old E3 announces for SWTOR. The #1 question was always "Fans want to see a KOTOR sequel. Is SWTOR going to be KOTOR3 with multiplayer options?" And the answer was always "yes, we are designing this game as an MMO in order to be able to tell stories in the Old Republic Universe for a long time". There was even something said along the lines of "There isn't just a vision of what would have been KOTOR 3. We hope to be able to use the MMO platform to let players experience and share enough stories for KOTOR 3, 4, 5, and maybe even 6". I can guarantee you there were more fans who wanted the KOTOR player experience vs. the MMO-kitchen sink crowd when the game was undergoing development in 2008. Remember, this was when the whole co-op mode multiplayer games were getting huge: L4D, Borderlands, Gears of War on XBox etc. When more promos came about expansive maps and such, it also felt like BW purposefully distanced themselves from WoW-like language. They wanted more of a generic large-scale teambased/co-op feel to what eventually became operations and WZs instead of trying to make them look like WoW raids or pvp matches. When WoW being used as the prototype for "generic MMO" features began to influence design and mechanic decisions, half the game was already lost...

Foobert's Avatar


Foobert
10.06.2012 , 08:48 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalfear View Post
The sad thing about TOR is, if the developers had even bothered reading their own forums. There was a early outpouring from the fan base (many who still post here today) on what game they wanted. A few people asked for outrageous things like perm death and courpse looting (and other ideas that will never fly in MMORPGs)
Only because LucasArts and EA wouldn't think they could make money on mechanics like those as they were expecting millions of subs to compensate for the $200mil development price tag. But Eve Online has been running with permadeath, corpse looting, and item destruction since 2003, so that completely blows away any argument that they were outrageous requests or would never fly.

xxIncubixx's Avatar


xxIncubixx
10.06.2012 , 08:48 AM | #25
SWG is more then dead, its like saying lineage 2 isnt dead just because there are some non factor private servers lurking around ~~

AndasKastor's Avatar


AndasKastor
10.06.2012 , 09:35 AM | #26
I actually think they tried too hard to listen to the fan base.

"I want PvP", "I hate PvP - don't let it influence PvE", "I want story", "I want raids", "the game is from 1 - x", the game starts at level cap"

It goes on and on.

Face it. If you got any game with all the features that you want it is not likely to appeal to everyone. It is like trying to juggle sand.

KennethHoover's Avatar


KennethHoover
10.06.2012 , 09:47 AM | #27
But...but....nostalgia!
"I need an Ewok to fetch me coffee and donuts."

My professional writing blog: http://kennethmarkhoover.me

Siorac's Avatar


Siorac
10.06.2012 , 09:55 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Slurmez View Post
Nonsense, the IP and potential is enormous, just not properly utilized. SWG was a total success by MMO standards right up until the devs tried to force their vision of fun onto the playerbase who were happy where they were.
According to one of the lead designers, it was losing 10k subscribers per month before NGE hit. If that's a roaring success...

http://rubenfield.com/?p=86

Tomb-Stone's Avatar


Tomb-Stone
10.06.2012 , 09:59 AM | #29
Most of the people that are pining over SWG are probably the same people who were constantly complaining about SWG's many imperfections back in the day.
Tomb-Stone
Common Sense Is Like Deodorant. The People Who Need It The Most Never Use It...

Slurmez's Avatar


Slurmez
10.06.2012 , 10:13 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
According to one of the lead designers, it was losing 10k subscribers per month before NGE hit. If that's a roaring success...

http://rubenfield.com/?p=86
Yeah and people can make anything sound like anything should they want to but whats your point? It was still a success in MMO terms and every MMO will suffer from attrition without desired expansions, thats simply lifecycle.

In regards to SWGs CU and NGE, Smedley the guy who thought them up and forced them through said they were "Stupid decisions. Complete and utter fail and I am very sorry", cant get much more succinct than that can you.

Problem is SWTOR doesnt seem to be learning from the mistakes of others, they are not conversing or listening to their customers and push things through because thats their "vision" which is a dangerous approach in the current climate and on a game in the somewhat perilous state SWTOR is (no Im not suggesting its going to vanish, more that its not remotely close to meeting EAs worst expectations and people are getting canned left and right)

Just to clarify, Im not a long time SWG player or even a fan, I can just appreciate the debacle that resulted in egos and arrogance riding roughshod over the consumer and ending in total failure.