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Can we get an update on Bioware's stance?


Wraiven

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In the last update, Bioware made some choices for us that many players obviously are not happy about, what-so-ever. Two of those changes are...

 

 


  • Taking away the Knock Back from Rocket Punch's Afterburner
  • Taking away an AoE from Inquisitors and Counselors

 

 

Granted, there seems to be a few people who actually like the changes, but judging from what I have been reading on these boards, there are more people than I can count, not only on these boards, but also in game, that despise these two changes...some have even went so far as to leave the game over it, as stated on these boards and in game with a couple players I know.

 

What I would most want to hear, is for Bioware to address these changes that have upset the community. I'm not saying that we should go after them with torches and pitchforks, but I would like to see if Bioware holds different views, now that they have the community's view points.

 

Basically, I would like for Bioware to address some of the tough questions that are almost never asked in the interviews that we watch and hear.

 

My first thread about this subject was a bit haste, and I apologize to both the community and Bioware. Sometimes I have a habit of putting my foot in my mouth, so hopefully this thread helps make amends. I can and do admit when I know I am wrong. :)

 

Appreciate any Dev response we can get on this in advanced, either via these Boards or a future interview.

Edited by Wraiven
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Yes, many would like to have the 360 knock back and 30 meter ranged Stun put back.

 

This was a "Wait and see" by BW during several conversations.

 

Well.. I tested on PTS and reported it changed my PVE game play. I played on my geared characters and I'm still not happy with having to change how I play PVE.

 

Please put them both back now. I have to pull agro to get close enough to stun and then cast a cc. Why so PVP folks stopped complaining? I'm a PVE player and didn't really care too much about PVP only changes so long as they didn't nerf my PVE content. These changes did just that.

 

Meanwhile.. I do LOVE the instant heal feature. (That helped so much keep us squishy people alive)

Edited by dscount
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I know I saw a thread where they said PvE was considered for the 1.4 changes, but I'd have to say it was not effectively considered. I just started an inquisitor and I have to say the 10m range on stun just does not fit the how the class should play. It looks wrong. You are standing too close to the enemy to the point where it feels wonky. Stunning at 30m in PvE helps relieve the healling pressure in the zone you want to be healing. At 10m the stun just doesn't fit.

 

The 1.4 class changes have an expedient feel to them. Bioware is well known for mood and feel in their games and I would have thought this should have had a significant impact on the decision to change things in the game. 1.4 doesn't take into account the stability of the play experience or the internal consistency of the class abilities. The decision did not effectively account for feel.

 

We are now in the zone for a mea culpa from someone in the company and I can see it going one of three ways:

 

1) Say nothing-not a good choice.

 

2) Blame the metrics-try to justify the decision based on what they measured. To me it suggests maybe they need to measure some other things e.g. playability, feel, consistency, stability. It also suggests the metrics may be the problem. Maybe they are measuring the wrong thing.

 

3) Take responsiblity for the problems in 1.4, outline what's in place to fix it, and put out what they intend to do to prevent these things from happening in the future.

 

Hopefully we'll hear something on the lines of option three.

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BW doesn't care about feedback.

 

Do you see an CONSTRUCTIVE feedback on the forums? If so please tell me where it is. All I see if fix this fix that nerf this, this is to easy. Also I see a lot of people complaining about what they did wrong, not what they did right.

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Do you see an CONSTRUCTIVE feedback on the forums? If so please tell me where it is. All I see if fix this fix that nerf this, this is to easy. Also I see a lot of people complaining about what they did wrong, not what they did right.

 

Actually, there was plenty of constructive feedback on PTS forum about tank changes, including hard numbers. BW didn't even give blowoff responses to complaints.

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Most people on the PTS forums hated the changes to tanks in 1.3...BW doesn't care about feedback.

 

I think this points to one of their specific problems: they don't get feedback until way too late in the process to do anything about it.

 

Perhaps beginning at, "we see this and we propose this to fix it" before typing any code would save a lot of work. Or put out a solution you want us to try with both the time and willingness to scrap or fix the proposed solution if it isn't on point.

 

Also, don't ask us to test something if you are actually not going to/can't change anything based on our feedback. If you want us to test make sure we can get to a place with the right type and level of characters, and in the right numbers to effectively test the change.

Edited by DashaAdair
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I think this points to one of their specific problems: they don't get feedback until way to late in the process to do anything about it.

 

Perhaps beginning at, "we see this and we propose this to fix it" before typing any code would save a lot of work. Or put out a solution you want us to try with both the time and willingness to scrap or fix the proposed solution if it isn't on point.

 

Also, don't ask us to test something if you are actually not going to/can't change anything based on our feedback. If you want us to test make sure we can get to a place with the right type and level of characters, and in the right numbers to effectively test the change.

 

And make sure more people than just a select few have access to their high level characters on the PTS. As it stands, Bioware is only getting a huge minority of the player base input. Leaving the input given up to a select few does *not* in any way shape or form help Bioware test proposed changes. It leaves a lot of us who would otherwise have opinions out in the cold, and we can't voice an opinion until it is far too late.

Edited by Wraiven
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I understand the changes for PvP, but I wish the changes had been limited to PvP. As it stands, cryo-grenade and force stun have become completely useless in PvE. These are ranged classes. Force wave, which was my healer's "oh crap, I'm getting mobbed!" maneuver now no longer works that way. The new mechanic has it's own uses, but having to run away from the mob that *always* heads straight for the healer in an op while trying to intensively heal generally causes problems. Sages can't run and heal very well. It does work rather well to send part of the mob flying to the tank, however. :p
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Its always annoying when people cant see past their own belly button.

 

No one likes to be nerfed either... but guess what? Its for the best of the game.

 

Its the same with this change. I miss the kockback on my trooper aswell, but i can see why it was considered OP. The aoe kockback was too slow and you would get knockback before it worked.

 

Its QQ for it beeing broken and QQ for it beeing fixed. Theres no pleasing.

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Do you see an CONSTRUCTIVE feedback on the forums? If so please tell me where it is. All I see if fix this fix that nerf this, this is to easy. Also I see a lot of people complaining about what they did wrong, not what they did right.

 

1. He was talking about feedback on the PTS. You DO know what PTS is?

 

2. Don't know if anyone would complain about what they did right.

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Its always annoying when people cant see past their own belly button.

 

No one likes to be nerfed either... but guess what? Its for the best of the game.

 

Its the same with this change. I miss the kockback on my trooper aswell, but i can see why it was considered OP. The aoe kockback was too slow and you would get knockback before it worked.

 

Its QQ for it beeing broken and QQ for it beeing fixed. Theres no pleasing.

 

Only it was not broken to begin with.

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I bet this is how the stun range reduction happened.

 

1-We need to reduce stuns

2-What if we were to reduce stun range?

1-Yeah I dont know, they're currently being used by the weakest classes in the game.

2-Doesnt matter, let's to it anyway. They can always re-roll

 

Now, resolve changes:

 

1- We still havent figured out a way to seperate pugs from premades so the pugs are complaining about getting stunlocked to death.

2-Easy solution, let's make it so that it's equally easy for pugs to stun people to death.

1-Deal!

 

OL/FW:

1-I just noticed that no one has ever complained about the FW/OL knockback. Well other than that it's not instant of course. How are we doing on that by the way?

2-Yeah it's weird that everyone is satisfied with it. Let's just change it. I mean, we still want this game to be dead by January, right?

1-Let's make it a cone. I mean, we've done everything we can to keep those 6K eating, cloth wearing bastards out of warzones but they still don't get it. so this might be the final straw.

2-Hold it, let's buff smash while we're at it, just to make sure.

1-Good point. They're stupid if they don't get the message this time.

Edited by MidichIorian
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I bet this is how the stun range reduction happened.

 

1-We need to reduce stuns

2-What if we were to reduce stun range?

1-Yeah I dont know, they're currently being used by the weakest classes in the game.

2-Doesnt matter, let's to it anyway. They can always re-roll

 

Now, resolve changes:

 

1- We still havent figured out a way to seperate pugs from premades so the pugs are complaining about getting stunlocked to death.

2-Easy solution, let's make it so that it's equally easy for pugs to stun people to death.

1-Deal!

 

OL/FW:

1-I just noticed that no one has ever complained about the FW/OL knockback. Well other than that it's not instant of course. How are we doing on that by the way?

2-Yeah it's weird that everyone is satisfied with it. Let's just change it. I mean, we still want this game to be dead by Jabuary, right?

1-Let's make it a cone. I mean, we've done everything we can to keep those 6K eating, cloth wearing bastards out of warzones but they still don't get it. so this might be the final straw.

2-Hold it, let's buff smash while we're at it, just to make sure.

1-Good point. They're stupid if they don't get the message this time.

 

 

LMFAO! Dude, you should soooo be a cartoonist, lol.

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I bet this is how the stun range reduction happened.

 

1-We need to reduce stuns

2-What if we were to reduce stun range?

1-Yeah I dont know, they're currently being used by the weakest classes in the game.

2-Doesnt matter, let's to it anyway. They can always re-roll

 

Are we *still* QQing about the stun range? The ones that changed were the "oh crap" buttons anyway. They are 60s cooldowns. Switching these to 10m only slightly nerfs the longer range ACs of the classes they affect, but they don't affect the shorter-range ACs (assassin/shadow, vanguard/powertech), which should already be fighting in the 4-10m range anyway.

 

I can see the argument about the aoe knockback switched to cone going either way, but honestly I think a lot of the negative reactions are inherently because people are always going to complain about nerfs anyway, not because it has changed the game significantly. A sizable group of players have always complained the TOR was too casual and easy. Well now guess what? The nerf just increased the factor of player skill instead of just standing around and pressing 1, 2, 3, 4 in every fight.

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Well now guess what? The nerf just increased the factor of player skill instead of just standing around and pressing 1, 2, 3, 4 in every fight.

 

 

Why is pressing 1, 2, 3, 4 so bad when a Carnage Spec Marauder only has to press 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2.....infinity?

 

I seriously doubt the Devs were thinking about what buttons people were pressing when they made these changes. If that were the case, they would have been all over the Carnage Spec Marauders a looooong time ago.

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Everyone who has an overpowered class will complain when their little loophole gets closed. How unfair it is that their class got "nerfed." Sorry pal, it's not nerfing if it makes the game fair for EVERYONE. Then again, if people wanted to play fair, there wouldn't be all the cheats, bots, and mods that seem to prevail on the fansites.
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+80082

 

i bet this is how the stun range reduction happened.

 

1-we need to reduce stuns

2-what if we were to reduce stun range?

1-yeah i dont know, they're currently being used by the weakest classes in the game.

2-doesnt matter, let's to it anyway. They can always re-roll

 

now, resolve changes:

 

1- we still havent figured out a way to seperate pugs from premades so the pugs are complaining about getting stunlocked to death.

2-easy solution, let's make it so that it's equally easy for pugs to stun people to death.

1-deal!

 

Ol/fw:

1-i just noticed that no one has ever complained about the fw/ol knockback. Well other than that it's not instant of course. How are we doing on that by the way?

2-yeah it's weird that everyone is satisfied with it. Let's just change it. I mean, we still want this game to be dead by january, right?

1-let's make it a cone. I mean, we've done everything we can to keep those 6k eating, cloth wearing bastards out of warzones but they still don't get it. So this might be the final straw.

2-hold it, let's buff smash while we're at it, just to make sure.

1-good point. They're stupid if they don't get the message this time.

Edited by BlackSpin
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Are we *still* QQing about the stun range? The ones that changed were the "oh crap" buttons anyway. They are 60s cooldowns. Switching these to 10m only slightly nerfs the longer range ACs of the classes they affect, but they don't affect the shorter-range ACs (assassin/shadow, vanguard/powertech), which should already be fighting in the 4-10m range anyway.

 

I can see the argument about the aoe knockback switched to cone going either way, but honestly I think a lot of the negative reactions are inherently because people are always going to complain about nerfs anyway, not because it has changed the game significantly. A sizable group of players have always complained the TOR was too casual and easy. Well now guess what? The nerf just increased the factor of player skill instead of just standing around and pressing 1, 2, 3, 4 in every fight.

I wouldnt have cared about it if it had happened to AC'es that were in a good place. Did anyone think sage/sorc and merc/commando were in a good place PvP'wise? So why would anyone in their right mind change a thing that only affects them? Even if it had just been a change, as in no negative or positive effect, it's still something new to adapt too, this when those classes already have spent months adapting to taking 6K hits back to back. Did they really need to make it even more complicated?

 

Or just look at rated teams, the reason to why people claim that dps sorc/sage can make it onto rated teams is because it's not the standard to put them on rated teams. The few I know of either started the team or re-speced from sage/sorc healer when they were already on the team. I'm still waiting for the day when a good PvP team advertises for a dps sorc/sage.

 

So that's the problem here, everyone begged for a buff in the feedback threads and they gave us the complete opposite. The fact that they dismissed everything in said threads was probably reason enough for many to quit the game. The hands down best sorc I've come across in this game, across several servers, quit when 1.2 hit and it's now ten times worse. I think that what they did to some classes is one of the main reasons to why the population is where it's currently at. People didnt roll sage/sorc and commandos on launch day because they knew those classes were in a good place at the time (thinking about the whole "sorcs are OP"), they rolled those classes because that's what they wanted to play. That's when BW decided to screw them over. Some re-rolled but a lot left.

Edited by MidichIorian
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Honestly I love the cone change with the inquisitor and sage.

I love how i can ( as a tank or melee dps) run towards the mobs and push some of them back to the rest of a group.

 

I love how i can ( as a caster dps) push mobs towards my tank and not blow everything thing to all hell.

 

If you take the time to learn how to use the force wave and the sith counterpart it works alot better now. But I guess there is the problem it mean some folks will have to think before they use it now. (What a shame!!)

 

As far as the stun, it still works where i need it to upclose and personal.

 

And as far as the trooper and bountyhunters go, get over it really. ya got a interupt now, and a really nice self heal plus all the other goodies you've had long before, those classes are the best example of being able to adapt to any given situation.

 

However I do dislike the random crashes to desktop and the influx of new lag thats poured in since 1.4

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Honestly I love the cone change with the inquisitor and sage.

I love how i can ( as a tank or melee dps) run towards the mobs and push some of them back to the rest of a group.

 

I love how i can ( as a caster dps) push mobs towards my tank and not blow everything thing to all hell.

 

If you take the time to learn how to use the force wave and the sith counterpart it works alot better now. But I guess there is the problem it mean some folks will have to think before they use it now. (What a shame!!)

 

As far as the stun, it still works where i need it to upclose and personal.

 

And as far as the trooper and bountyhunters go, get over it really. ya got a interupt now, and a really nice self heal plus all the other goodies you've had long before, those classes are the best example of being able to adapt to any given situation.

 

However I do dislike the random crashes to desktop and the influx of new lag thats poured in since 1.4

 

Glad someone else sees the benificial tactical advantage of this.

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I wouldnt have cared about it if it had happened to AC'es that were in a good place. Did anyone think sage/sorc and merc/commando were in a good place PvP'wise? So why would anyone in their right mind change a thing that only affects them? Even if it had just been a change, as in no negative or positive effect, it's still something new to adapt too, this when those classes already have spent months adapting to taking 6K hits back to back. Did they really need to make it even more complicated?

 

Or just look at rated teams, the reason to why people claim that dps sorc/sage can make it onto rated teams is because it's not the standard to put them on rated teams. The few I know of either started the team or re-speced from sage/sorc healer when they were already on the team. I'm still waiting for the day when a good PvP team advertises for a dps sorc/sage.

 

So that's the problem here, everyone begged for a buff in the feedback threads and they gave us the complete opposite. The fact that they dismissed everything in said threads was probably reason enough for many to quit the game. The hands down best sorc I've come across in this game, across several servers, quit when 1.2 hit and it's now ten times worse. I think that what they did to some classes is one of the main reasons to why the population is where it's currently at. People didnt roll sage/sorc and commandos on launch day because they knew those classes were in a good place at the time (thinking about the whole "sorcs are OP"), they rolled those classes because that's what they wanted to play. That's when BW decided to screw them over. Some re-rolled but a lot left.

 

QFT

 

Online games have gone too far when they go around changing the complete mechanic of how an ability works. People expect nerfs, Damage reduction, CC reduction, cost of ability increase, so on and so forth...but when you completely change the mechanics of that ability, it really tends to tick people off.

 

Ask me how much I have played my Sorc or my Assassin or my Shadow since the latest "change" (I should call it what it is...a nerf) to the class? Almost zero. When I joined this game late Beta, I seen another guy use Overload...I thought to myself, wow...that is one cool ability. I would love to have that...simply for the theme (RP value?) of it. Now...it's nothing like it used to be. The whole idea of slamming down your fist on the ground, creating a shock-wave that forcibly knocks back everything around you, was just an awesome idea and I commended Bioware for this. Now...it's a shadow of what it once was...and the class just feels...like an empty shell of what it used to be. I can't stand to use the ability now.

 

For theme reasons, to be COMPLETELY HONEST HERE...if they had nerfed it in some other way...maybe add a longer timer to it, make it cost more Force Power to use...turn it in to a knock down instead of a knock back, I would have been fine with it. It would have still retained it's intended (Bioware intended it to work this way...I don't care what the Devs have backpedaled and now say, I'm no idiot.) function and held it's same themed value.

 

If they absolutely had to give us a cone knock back, they should have changed the animation all together in to a Force Push animation, and turned it in to a targeted ability, rather than a directional ability.. At least that would have made thematic sense.

Edited by Wraiven
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Honestly I love the cone change with the inquisitor and sage.

I love how i can ( as a tank or melee dps) run towards the mobs and push some of them back to the rest of a group.

 

I love how i can ( as a caster dps) push mobs towards my tank and not blow everything thing to all hell.

 

If you take the time to learn how to use the force wave and the sith counterpart it works alot better now. But I guess there is the problem it mean some folks will have to think before they use it now. (What a shame!!)

 

Ummm...you could do all that *before* the nerf. Why did it need to be changed in order for you to use it properly? I was doing ALL that long before the nerf got here.

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