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Here's Where We, The Community, Went Wrong

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Community Content
Here's Where We, The Community, Went Wrong

msuspartan's Avatar

10.04.2012 , 08:16 AM | #51
I am one of those 80% that don't post a lot and here is MY take.

Each group has some very valid points BUT it IS a service to us to play.
One area that we as a community HAVE failed is in the way we have complained. We have complained, B****HED, whined and pointed out ALL that was wrong. When you do something and someone points out EVERY detail of what you COULD have done you resent it.

Same with BW/EA. Do we know the story from behind the 'gaming devs curtain'? No we do not. We do not know what they were told, budgeted for or able to do right then.
Maybe they did not realize the leveling could happen that fast. A lot of maybes we do NOT know of.

BW does need a better customer servicing/communications person(s) to discuss with the community, BUT many of them, like any blog, ppl hide behind their mouse buttons and whine about everything from what their shoes look like to not enough content.

I have been playing since Feb. of this year AND I leveled to 50 about a month ago (I have a life, job, children and a business) I am know learning how to play a level 50 Jedi all over again.

My point is this, if you have a complaint, whine, bi**h then come up with a solution or two that many people might enjoy, not just for your advantage over everyone else. What would make the game GROW for all? Is it your pet peeve or a true glitch in game play? Or an idea or two about missions, pve, pvp and to also realize that maybe the game went faster than expected. It takes time to make a new mission, flash or pvp world.

This strictly MY view, don't care if you trash it because I love the game and the ideas behind it. I have NEVER played WoW or anything else on line but have gamed since D&D was three little books.

Try being positive and thoughtful when criticizing anything. It could be you that made this game and if you suggest instead of tear down someones hard work then it WILL NOT FAIL.

Have a great Day and see you in the Galaxy...DonK

Paintcheck's Avatar

10.04.2012 , 08:33 AM | #52
I am not taking the blame for EA's hubris. THEY were the ones who thought "Star Wars name = instant 10 million subs" and then promptly started eviscerating Bioware Austin 2 months in when the game wasn't hitting WoW numbers. Which only amplified the problem because it's kind of hard to make exciting new content when your studio's workforce is cut in half (or third...or tenth, not sure what the exact number is). That is squarely EA's fault.

Complaining about content makes players "entitled"? Really? Bioware/EA was the one saying early on (I think it was in February) "Content every 4 weeks!" which they then upped to "Every 6 weeks!" which they then just ignored and released content whenever. Now they are back to saying "6 weeks" but given that Bioware is still losing devs (apparently the lead designer just walked out today) that seems unlikely. In today's environment with plenty of good F2P offerings TOR was asking a lot for a $15 subscription fee and it failed to provide enough value to make it worth it to, what was the number, 1.1 million subs? Out of 1.7 million that is hardly an "undeserved sense of entitlement". Standards are higher and TOR didn't meet them and then EA decided to stop supporting it. I remember telling several of my friends in November right before launch "TOR will be free to play in a year or sooner" because there is no way a subscription model will survive in this world unless the devs do something crazy like content every month to really make it worth it which of course is unrealistic to expect.

Yeah I think some of the community's response was wrong. Anyone complaining about PvP comes to mind because from the beginning this game was going to be about PVE and the story. But most of the other complaints I see on the forum are entirely the fault of EA/Bioware. They were the ones making promises and then breaking them, they were the ones ignoring the player base and failing to communicate anything, and they (well EA) was the one that decided to put the game in maintenance mode after 6 months instead of actually developing it and trying to turn its fortunes around, thereby guaranteeing it lingers in its current state until they pull the plug.

If TOR is going to turn around it's the devs that need to fix it. Yes the forums are full of negativity but most of it is legitimate from fed-up customers angry at being ignored by a company trying to charge them $15 a month for very little meaningful content. It is entirely possible F2P will turn the game around but I really, really doubt it. EA doesn't want to put any resources into bettering the game and they seem content to let it remain a solid, somewhat generic MMO for another year or so until it stops covering its costs and they shut it down. Which is a shame because it could have been great.

In response to the post above me "What would make the game grow?" Bioware/EA needs content and they need to communicate with the players. The community will get positive when we have something to be positive about. The only time I ever see TOR mentioned on gaming sites these days is either someone saying how hard it failed or someone reporting more people are leaving the studio. I don't remember the last time I saw something positive written about TOR anywhere not just on the forums but elsewhere. The closest I saw was some analysts sounding cautiously optimistic about the game's F2P prospects. That needs to stop or no one is going to play even if it is free.

Gritfiend's Avatar

10.04.2012 , 08:33 AM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by MilesTheFox View Post
No, this isn't a thread about the doctors left because of us, EA is the devil, yada yada. No, this is just me getting out there where I believe we went wrong.

Here are our most blatant errors regarding this game.

Believing it would compete with World of Warcraft.
Yes, even I'll admit, I fantasized about TOR putting a dent in WoW's subscriber base. But when I came to my senses, it dawned on me that TOR cannot compete with a game that has had 8 years to build a very solid foundation. It's just not gonna happen. Countless MMO's have been claimed to be the 'WoW Killer'. Face it, the only thing that is going to kill WoW is WoW. In between Cataclysm and Pandaria, we saw more than 800,000 subscribers leave of their own accord. When WoW finally dies, it won't have anything to do with the competition.

A stellar RPG DOES NOT equal a stellar MMO.
It's obvious. The Old Republic got the budget it did because of the success of Knights of the Old Republic and because EA wanted a piece of the WoW pie (there's publishers for ya *grumble grumble). One of the most successful Star Wars games of all time, and the first Star Wars RPG. KOTOR is also home to what is widely considered to be the greatest plot twist in all of gaming.
Like it or not, you add in MMO elements, you ARE going to muck up what made the game great in the first place. It's a lesson the industry hasn't quite learned yet, but I hope it does soon, before every beloved franchise is bastardized in MMO form.
I am highly anticipating The Elder Scrolls Online having the EXACT same problems this game has.

We should not be allowed to complain about a lack of content for the entire first year.
I'm just gonna come out and say it. If you were one of the players that hit 50 in the first week, you shouldn't even be allowed to post on the forums, and if you complained about lack of an end game in that time frame, you should be permabanned with no second chances.
This is the first MMO of it's kind - story-heavy, fully-voiced content. That is what the majority of players liked the most in this game; the leveling and the story. Content like that is going to take more time to generate. And I certainly hope that's the kind of content that is consistently generated, because if not, F2P or not, this game will fall even further than it has in terms of sub count.
This game is not about having one character and getting better and better and better gear (that's actually what I detest most about MMO's). No, the Legacy system was built around re-rolling once you hit 50, to experience another story, and the Legacy system gave you options to have a small leg-up with a new character.

Well, there are my quick thoughts. Debate, add to it, flame, it's all good.
What's this WE crap? You have a mouse in your pocket?

How are WE to blame for the game competing with WoW when that is what Bioware/EA said?

I agree with the second point but again that is not OUR problem, the community did not make the game.

As for number 3. Your idea would be fine if the game was not just one linear amusement park ride on rails. SWG did not have end game content but the whole world was open to do what you want. People formed their own communities and did things. That is impossible with this type of game. If you don't keep coming out with content people get bored.

-OldFecker-'s Avatar

10.05.2012 , 09:05 AM | #54
Let me get one thing out in the open first before I carry on. This is the only MMO I've ever played. But on the flipside to that, I've been gaming on various platforms since I was around 6 - so about 27 years. I consider myself to be a 'core' gamer and I'm completely platform agnostic.


Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
You're 100% wrong!!! WE...NONE of us...have made ANY errors. WE are not the programmers. WE are not the producers. WE are not coders. WE didn't rush anything. WE didn't make promises WE had no intention of keeping. WE are the CUSTOMER and WE have every right to demand a decent game for our $. When 4 of every 5 people who paid full price for this game, have QUIT it, it tells you it's just a BAD GAME. WE had nothing to do with that. WE gave them a shot, THEY blew it.
I'm sorry, but most of that is complete and utter **** mate. The only part of that I agree with is that no-one that wasn't part of the development of this game is in the wrong.

To say that this game was rushed...??? The game was first announced in October '08 and it's widely known that writers had been working on the game for 2 years previous to that. So that means, roughly, WoW was 2 years old. This game was not rushed, just conceived when the world of the MMO was a very different place to what it is now.

Saying that because you're a paying customer entitles you to a game that you deem by your own standards to be decent is ridiculous. I think SWTOR is a decent game and me and my mates that have only recently started playing it are having a good time playing it.

Also, saying 4 out of 5 people who paid full price have quit the game (source?) therefore makes it a bad game is also totally ridiculous. There's quite a lot of people who habitually go from one MMO to the next. They hoover up the content and then go onto the next one. These in my opinion aren't gamers, they're MMO players. They invariably probably end up back at WoW because that game has had practically 8 years to refine and iterate on itself.

If you think the game is so horrendously bad then don't play it anymore - and don't whinge on the forums of the game that you think is so bad. It's not even been out a year yet and there'll be an influx of players once it goes F2P.

The people I game with and myself are really enjoying it (maybe it's coz we've never played WoW and are primarily 360 gamers nowadays due to time constraints / family etc), just need to find a decent guild now!

Gryphandor's Avatar

10.05.2012 , 12:56 PM | #55
All these companies need to wait till WoW just dies or realize it isn't very likely that too many people will leave one MMO they have played for years to start off fresh in another. That isn't reasonable. With that factor kept in mind I still call SWToR a success and I think with some persistance it has room to really grow a lot.

Edit: I need to add this.

Stop the damn forum QQ. Chasing away any chance of getting new people or former players to come to the game. It is bad enough I know atleast 20 people that went back to WoW. They had over 7 years in the game like me though. So I can't blame them. It was hard for me but I am happy here playing SWToR.
Gryphandor Legacy
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PalihoJ's Avatar

10.06.2012 , 09:03 AM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by -OldFecker- View Post
Also, saying 4 out of 5 people who paid full price have quit the game (source?) therefore makes it a bad game is also totally ridiculous. There's quite a lot of people who habitually go from one MMO to the next. They hoover up the content and then go onto the next one. These in my opinion aren't gamers, they're MMO players. They invariably probably end up back at WoW because that game has had practically 8 years to refine and iterate on itself.
I agree with lots of what you said and particularly this bit about the locusts of the the MMO community apart from their reasons for going back to WoW.
I honeslty believe that they return to WoW after devouring 'the next big MMO' not because they think it's a particularly good game, else why would they be looking elswhere? They return simply because it is the game they are familiar with and feel comfortable in, complete with their multiple max level characers that they have invested an inordinate amount of time developing and guildies that they have spent many months/years with ************ about WoW.
Any new MMO would have to be something out of this world to keep their attention in any great numbers for any real length of time, if that was even possible!
Don't get me wrong I know this game has its faults and they will be the reason that a lot of players left the game but a noticalbe number of them will have came and went just following this MMO locust culture.

Nanachub's Avatar

10.09.2012 , 02:10 AM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by tiennen View Post
The poison and bile that was spit out of many of our forum-goers early on in this game's life was, sadly, expected for me.

I think that many of them may have been on the forums in many other games, sptting their poison there before they left:

GW2 -- very recent

It has become common for forums to be crowded with people "unhappy" with their playing experience within a month of getting the game, and many of them are former WoW players who expected the game to be as polished as their beloved Panda-Land (not always the case, I started with WoW, but have never really complained about any other MMOs)

I believe it wasn't the "mediocrity" of this game that "ruined" it, it was the ignorant, entitled players themselves. This game is great. It is like KOTOR 3, with multiplayer. There are a lot of people that would argue with me, but it is my strong opinion that SW:TOR is one of the best MMO's out there right now, even surpassing WoW in qaulity of gameplay. (I went back to WoW for a couple days, it was boring and the gameplay was absolutely stale, questing made me want to gouge out my eyes)
Completely agree - saw it in WAR and also was there reading general chat facepalming my self in January 2012 as people were complaining they had played TOR like it was a Asian MMO in which they had power grind'ed the game like it was 1999 to lvl 50, whilst "space barring" every conversation etc etc, only then to go and complain in chat its boring.
Also seeing people leave within the first 60 days quoting there isnt enough content etc etc was another odd moment.

To compare from memory TOR to World of Warcraft which had in its first year a down then big up in its first year (ending its first the year on a big high) but that was a different time where most MMO gamers today had never played a MMO and become attached, I personally think that gamers then were more sympathetic possibly to what a MMO should be on an global level and not just from a personal perspective?

I would say that most MMO gamers today have played a MMO before and that causes us all problems with any new game especially ones that are just starting. Its hard to not compare to your last game and its successes through rose tinted glasses. WoW has been around now for some time and is still going - possibly the gamers we see out and about are not ready for the next big game but have not yet come to turns the old one has gone but still sleeps in the room next door? just my two penneth chaps.

sankalp's Avatar

10.10.2012 , 12:05 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by TheOnlyHope View Post
I get so tired of people complaining every single update.

At least this publisher decides to update the game at all. I've been in MMORPG's where the company swears up and down for new content, and when it does finally come out, it's full of holes, highly exploitable glitches, and packed full of excuses as to why. (They once blamed China's different gaming culture. lolnope.)

Compared to all the stuff I've seen happen in the past, BioWare and EA have done a brilliant job here, considering how young this game is, and what they had to work with.

People who complain and throw tantrums every time there's an update, or EA doesn't release something they said would come out "LATER" (which means, later and not "in the next patch",) need to keep it to themselves, or just uninstall the game and leave. I'm glad there's a blacklisting funciton, because all the moaning and whining just drags down the mood in general and makes the game less fun to play.

I do personally believe it's more the fault of the players than the company.
I have highlighted something in your post.

I cannot be arsed to quote all the BW bigwigs talking about monthly/6 weekly updates, new content blah blah blah which we are yet to see.

As for the content that comes out, check the forums for 1.4 bugs

and as for other MMO that say LATER, replace that by "Soon". Check out this thread (the 2 BW posts, their timings etc)

sankalp's Avatar

10.10.2012 , 12:37 AM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by -OldFecker- View Post
blah blah..... just need to find a decent guild now!
tell me about how much experience you have had with SWTOR.

The problem with this game is it does not have a defined audience. It is too causal for end game raiders and too grindy/group oriented for casuals.

Some people are happy rolling alts and redoing solo missions and maybe pugging an odd flashpoint. They need more story. They dont care abt low populations coz for them its a Single player game with elements of multiplayer

Some people are endgame raiders. They have multiple alts too but want to do endgame will all of them. They are appaled by the lack of end game content, both pvp and pve, and are unhappy with the low pop on servers where they dont find enough people to run Ops with.

If BW/EA defined which segment they are catering too, atlease it will make it easy for them to pump out content for that segment and keep it happy, the other segment can leave. The biggest mistake SWTOR has made is being a jack of all trades, which has left nearly everyone unhappy.

And before you ask, I have been around since pre launch. Have experienced nearly all stories, cleared endgame pve on multiple toons. agreed i dont pvp much but still am in a guild that is PVP champs on my server and know that happens there. I am ok with this game and I pay my $15 a month, but I am disappointed by how good this could have been.

Kowack's Avatar

10.10.2012 , 04:10 AM | #60
I stumbled on this thread out of boredom really, and then fascinated by the bickering between parties when the OP stated something to the effect that bickering and what-not caused this games demise.

I left off on page 5 and figured I would chime in as to why I think the game has lost a large portion of sub. This is my 2nd MMO, SWG the original (b4 the respec garbage) was my first. I wanted Kotor3, and I kind of got it with the 1-50. I have no interest in redoing a whole new character. I am beginning to get bored with the end game and the only reason I continue to play is to beat all the content of end game. There are others in my guild that this is their first MMO who also came for Kotor3, some of whom have already left because MMOs dont interest them.

I left SWG to play FPS's with a quick adrenalin fix, immediate gratification and requiring little amount of time commitment. I know a lot of my guild members switch from FPS to this because, well frankly, its STARWARS! But once the lightsaber/lightings get old, its just another time consuming MMO...... Its not a bad MMO I guess, havent really anything to compare it to, but it is an MMO. A lot of us came for the Kotor3 and sabers, not to live in lola land for the next 4 years.

On a side not, I started as a free to 15 I see the value of the F2P model. I hope more people get longer enjoyment out of this game than I did. I am an American after all and enjoy instant gratification! I do wish the community a long lived game.