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Whos the bad guys?


Vincit's Avatar


Vincit
10.04.2012 , 10:46 AM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by AhsokaTanorules View Post
Still got a shot at life.
Yup. And you can also get experimented on by mad scientists then forced to fight other prisoners to test the results of the experiments. Or possibly get eaten by your fellow prisoners. All for the whopping crime of being opposed to the political maneuvers of the folks in power. Like chopping off the legs of a jaywalker.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
10.04.2012 , 11:05 AM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by Vincit View Post
Yup. And you can also get experimented on by mad scientists then forced to fight other prisoners to test the results of the experiments. Or possibly get eaten by your fellow prisoners. All for the whopping crime of being opposed to the political maneuvers of the folks in power. Like chopping off the legs of a jaywalker.
When you find out about the Belsavis experiments on the Republic side, it's all "That's horrifying" and the senator is like "Don't tell anyone"

When you find out about that on the Imperial side, it's all "Why didn't we think of that first" and "Wow, I didn't think the Republic had it in them" and "Let's take over the program now that it's shut down."

Every bit of corruption and evil in the Republic is matched and far exceeded by the Sith.

Defending the Sith Empire is like glamorizing the Middle Ages. Sure, if you were a Lord it was a sweet setup. As one of the many peasants, it was horrible.

errant_knight's Avatar


errant_knight
10.04.2012 , 11:48 AM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
When you find out about the Belsavis experiments on the Republic side, it's all "That's horrifying" and the senator is like "Don't tell anyone"

When you find out about that on the Imperial side, it's all "Why didn't we think of that first" and "Wow, I didn't think the Republic had it in them" and "Let's take over the program now that it's shut down."

Every bit of corruption and evil in the Republic is matched and far exceeded by the Sith.

Defending the Sith Empire is like glamorizing the Middle Ages. Sure, if you were a Lord it was a sweet setup. As one of the many peasants, it was horrible.
Depends on the npc and they type of character you're playing. Some npcs think it's horrible, some don't. Some player characters think it's horrible, some don't. They did a good job of making it possible to be both ls and ds in both factions, and to be able to find both good and bad things about both sides that make that work. In the movies, everything is black and white, the game has a lot more grey. Why not embrace that instead of trying to argue that it doesn't exist?

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
10.04.2012 , 12:28 PM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by errant_knight View Post
Depends on the npc and they type of character you're playing. Some npcs think it's horrible, some don't. Some player characters think it's horrible, some don't. They did a good job of making it possible to be both ls and ds in both factions, and to be able to find both good and bad things about both sides that make that work. In the movies, everything is black and white, the game has a lot more grey. Why not embrace that instead of trying to argue that it doesn't exist?
I agree that its definitely not black and white. I just believe that the Republic is whitish-grey and the Sith Empire is blackish-grey.

Individuals can overcome their environments and be good or bad. And I can imagine an empire run by a non-Sith being successful and worthy of respect (Grand Admiral Thrawn in the distant future perhaps?) But the state of the Sith Empire at the time of the Old Republic, it's leaders promote an environment where evil can flourish and good is hard to come by.

It can be argued that the blatant evilness of the Sith Empire is preferable to the hidden corruption of the Republic, but that isn't my view.

I do enjoy the options presented in the game, though. My Sith Inquisitor is an evil **** and relishes in it. My Imperial Agent, on the other hand, is a consummate professional and is loyal to the Empire. She often times makes light side decisions if they help her mission and objectives. This puts her at odds with the many Sith in power, and I believe that is an accurate depiction of the flaws of the Sith Empire at the time of the game.

The Esseles vs Black Talon is an interesting example.
Spoiler

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
10.04.2012 , 12:32 PM | #105
It's also worth noting that Project Noble Focus was applied to only one part of the prison and hidden from even the rest of the prison staff.

AhsokaTanorules's Avatar


AhsokaTanorules
10.04.2012 , 03:40 PM | #106
Project Noble Focus was only used on savage convicts and criminals and I for one actually agree in the logic of using beings like thos for intelligence gathering. But then again you are talking to someone who believes chain gangs should exist. Convicts and criminals should at least be forced to build and maintain the highways in our country if they are going to get all that free room and board.

And think of what the Empire would do as an alternative to cryo sleep. Probably put you in one of those torture stasis devices where not only can you not move but your viscera are being torn apart form the inside as well. A long spell of dreamless sleep certainly sounds more plausible to that,

The few bad apples that represent corruption in the senate are a small percentage of the Republic cmpared to the overwhelming percentage of ruthless Nazi-like Moffs and Sith lords who would sooner kill you then look at you. Most dissident of the Republic who speak out against corruption of the Republic are just a bunch of brainless conspiracy theorists similar to the people we have in our country who think George Bush caused 9/11 on purpose.

Also as an example of Empire cruelty and what the Republic might do instead. Take the brain dead "lab rat" in the Imperial base in Voss. He is treated by his superiors like he is an animal. You know that the Republic, particularly the Jedi, would be tryng to find a way to help him instead. Same ting for that poor Sith's apprentice left outside of town and injured by animals. He is left to die. Now if he worked for Jedi he would be brought back, given a warm meal and bed and nursed back to health.

errant_knight's Avatar


errant_knight
10.04.2012 , 03:49 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I agree that its definitely not black and white. I just believe that the Republic is whitish-grey and the Sith Empire is blackish-grey.

Individuals can overcome their environments and be good or bad. And I can imagine an empire run by a non-Sith being successful and worthy of respect (Grand Admiral Thrawn in the distant future perhaps?) But the state of the Sith Empire at the time of the Old Republic, it's leaders promote an environment where evil can flourish and good is hard to come by.

It can be argued that the blatant evilness of the Sith Empire is preferable to the hidden corruption of the Republic, but that isn't my view.

I do enjoy the options presented in the game, though. My Sith Inquisitor is an evil **** and relishes in it. My Imperial Agent, on the other hand, is a consummate professional and is loyal to the Empire. She often times makes light side decisions if they help her mission and objectives. This puts her at odds with the many Sith in power, and I believe that is an accurate depiction of the flaws of the Sith Empire at the time of the game.

The Esseles vs Black Talon is an interesting example.
Spoiler
I don`t disagree. `Good` behavior on the republic side doesn`t have to be justified, where as on the empire side it does. The bad aspects of the empire are well known.

However, I think those who minimize/excuse republic corruption and bad deeds, or do the same with the fact that there are good people in the empire as well as those who are DS but still honorable (ie. Scourge), do the game and its writing a disservice. Sometimes, who the good guys are can get a little murky and that's awesome.

CrazyCarpet's Avatar


CrazyCarpet
10.04.2012 , 04:23 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
I've not played the Republic, but I can easily imagine that they have similar "evils" as the Empire, they're just more hypocritical about it.
Corrupt politicians, corrupt military leaders, gangs, etc. You have no idea.
~The Carpet

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
10.04.2012 , 04:50 PM | #109
A corrupt politician in the Republic has less power than a Sith Lord who has exactly as much power as he is supposed to, so even a corrupt version of Republic system is not as bad as the Empire's system. And no, Republic's evils aren't as bad as the Empire's evils. The Republic doesn't have slave uprisings and constant turmoil from inter-sith fighting.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
10.04.2012 , 05:22 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by errant_knight View Post
...

However, I think those who minimize/excuse republic corruption and bad deeds, or do the same with the fact that there are good people in the empire as well as those who are DS but still honorable (ie. Scourge), do the game and its writing a disservice. Sometimes, who the good guys are can get a little murky and that's awesome.
I can see your point. I'm not actually trying to justify the obvious corruption in the Republic.

I've just seen the argument that "the Republic is just as bad as the Empire, they just hide it better," and it comes across as silly to me.

If I were living in the Old Republic universe, the Sith Empire would be a frightening place to be, dominated by fear and distrust. You could be murdered by a Sith Lord on the steps of the Dromund Kaas plaza just because you looked sideways at him as he walked by, and everyone else would just look down and pretend it didn't happen.

If you were on Coruscant, at the steps of the Senate Tower, would you expect any Jedi Master to ever behave that way?