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TFB HM Loot tables


anstalt's Avatar


anstalt
10.04.2012 , 03:43 AM | #11
To be honest, I think the step up in difficulty between EV/KP, then EC and now TFB is enough to ensure that the vast majority of raiders wont be fully geared up ever.

Lets face it, full Rakata was really easy to get because both KP and EV HM were very easy raids in terms of mechanics. EC HM, on the other hand, was a big step up in difficulty as seen by how few guilds have actually cleared it. You cannot easily carry the average player through EC HM as it is too easy for a single point of failure to cause a wipe, be it due to strict enrage timers, not quick enough on tank swops or low healing.

Its looking like TFB is going to be the same. Both EC and TFB seem like fun raids but on HM the difficulty just seems beyond the average raider. So, whilst hardcore people will gear up quickly and get TFB on farm, I don't think the average raider will ever clear TFB HM.


I think that is the bigger issue that Bioware need to address. I'm not sure how other guilds are coping with this, but in my guild we have reached a point where we are starting to have arguements about raiding. Our core team is great for progression, if we get a core team together we can one-shot all bosses in EC HM, we've killed Writhing Horror twice and are working on second boss now. However, the non-core raiders in our guild simply aren't good enough to get through EC HM. The jump in difficulty from story to hardmode is too much for most of them to make. However, they've already got full rakata / black hole because that was easy to get! We're struggling to find a way to get them through EC HM and thus better geared, but if we don't get them through EC HM then they'll certainly never be able to do TFB HM.


So, whilst I agree that loot needs to be a good incentive for repeating raids, I rather think that smoothing the difficulty curve between raids is more important to stop the community becoming too segregated. If Bioware aren't careful, they will reach a point where the top raiders are in item level 70 gear whilst the average raider with still stuck at 61 because they can't clear EC HM / TFB HM. I would much rather Bioware smoothed the curve or flat out nerfed the harder raids to improve clearance rates, than keep it like it is and segregate the community.
Anstalt - lvl 50 valor 81 Shadow Consular

Currently retired due to poor design decisions within the game that have killed its longevity. Get rid of Hickman before he ruins the game completely!

Kophar's Avatar


Kophar
10.04.2012 , 04:32 AM | #12
The learning curve is good as it is. The difficulty and mechanics on TFB is pretty well made but it cant have those loot tables reguarding loot numbers, its just unconsistent with everything ive seen to an MMO.
I saw a dark explosion. I sensed a power within. I felt the urge, the rage, the power... I AM REBORN!!

Svii's Avatar


Svii
10.04.2012 , 04:38 AM | #13
First boss in TFB is clearly a DPS and team coordination check. Compared to the 2nd boss, the 1st is cakewalk. It's like "You have to be this tall to enter" message hehe

I don't get why people expect to jump straight to the newest and hardest content, there is a progression path clearly outlined by what gear is dropped. It's not so much about the gear in EC/TFB, as it is coordination. If you're struggling with EC HM, you will struggle even more in TFB HM.

Like a poster before me, the gear is icing on the cake, downing a boss for the first time feels excellent! :>

Svii - Sniper
Impetus Norvegicus
Bloodworthy => ToFN

anstalt's Avatar


anstalt
10.04.2012 , 05:07 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Svii View Post
I don't get why people expect to jump straight to the newest and hardest content, there is a progression path clearly outlined by what gear is dropped. It's not so much about the gear in EC/TFB, as it is coordination. If you're struggling with EC HM, you will struggle even more in TFB HM.
This is the thing, my non-core raiding guildies don't expect to just jump straight in. They have already done EV and KP nightmare, as well as EC and TFB story mode. However, they are all faceroll easy these days. My guildies now have full rakata / black hole gear, so they no longer have any need to go back to the old raids.

The problem now is the jump up in difficulty to EC HM, especially now that story mode got nerfed. These people in my guild, and I expect many other guilds, cannot make the massive jump in difficulty. Not only do the mechanics become harder but you have to be able to play your class to the limit, otherwise you fail enrage timers or die. Nowhere else has challenged them in this way and wiping over and over isn't helping them learn.

It is my job as an officer and raid leader to figure out a way to train these people, but I just can't do it. For myself and the other core raiders in my guild, we had EC HM on farm months ago, we've done first boss TFB HM and nearly got second boss HM too. But, for us, we were forced to learn the hard way: we learned EV and KP whilst in greens, moved to hard mode in columi / tionese before the hardmodes got nerfed, did nightmare mode EV and KP in rakata rather than BH. It was a clear learning curve. That doesn't exist for new raiders. New raiders generally already generally have some rakata or blackhole gear from dailies. They usually join raids with people who are already experieced. So, for them, it is soooo much easier to clear the first few raids that they dont need to learn their class well. The first time they have to actually play well is when they do EC HM, but it is simply too hard compared to everything they've done to date.

My choice at the moment in guild is to either only take the best players to EC/TFB HM and thus alienate my other raiders or take less well played raiders and accept the fact that we're gonna wipe all night and waste everybodies time. I'm in a lose/lose position at the moment because there doesn't exist a raid in which to train well-geared-but-under-experieced raiders.
Anstalt - lvl 50 valor 81 Shadow Consular

Currently retired due to poor design decisions within the game that have killed its longevity. Get rid of Hickman before he ruins the game completely!

Grobluk's Avatar


Grobluk
10.04.2012 , 05:18 AM | #15
I just never understood why the content must be tuned so that everybody is able to do everything.

It sounds like your guild members just don't have what it takes to raid on a certain level. It happens.

I think that people are generally fine with there being content that they just can't hack, at least until it has been nerfed in preparation of a patch or expansion. If you played other MMO's, you're used to it.

If you want to make SM harder to extent the longevity for bad/mediocre raiders, fine. You'll get lots of complaints a la SM EC however.

Please don't tone down the hard content, it is what is keeping the game alive for some of us.

Kophar's Avatar


Kophar
10.04.2012 , 05:26 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by anstalt View Post
This is the thing, my non-core raiding guildies don't expect to just jump straight in. They have already done EV and KP nightmare, as well as EC and TFB story mode. However, they are all faceroll easy these days. My guildies now have full rakata / black hole gear, so they no longer have any need to go back to the old raids.

The problem now is the jump up in difficulty to EC HM, especially now that story mode got nerfed. These people in my guild, and I expect many other guilds, cannot make the massive jump in difficulty. Not only do the mechanics become harder but you have to be able to play your class to the limit, otherwise you fail enrage timers or die. Nowhere else has challenged them in this way and wiping over and over isn't helping them learn.

It is my job as an officer and raid leader to figure out a way to train these people, but I just can't do it. For myself and the other core raiders in my guild, we had EC HM on farm months ago, we've done first boss TFB HM and nearly got second boss HM too. But, for us, we were forced to learn the hard way: we learned EV and KP whilst in greens, moved to hard mode in columi / tionese before the hardmodes got nerfed, did nightmare mode EV and KP in rakata rather than BH. It was a clear learning curve. That doesn't exist for new raiders. New raiders generally already generally have some rakata or blackhole gear from dailies. They usually join raids with people who are already experieced. So, for them, it is soooo much easier to clear the first few raids that they dont need to learn their class well. The first time they have to actually play well is when they do EC HM, but it is simply too hard compared to everything they've done to date.

My choice at the moment in guild is to either only take the best players to EC/TFB HM and thus alienate my other raiders or take less well played raiders and accept the fact that we're gonna wipe all night and waste everybodies time. I'm in a lose/lose position at the moment because there doesn't exist a raid in which to train well-geared-but-under-experieced raiders.
Put them on EC HM? For campaign gear? You have to start to train them somewhere m8 and you and them have to accept they will wipe for 1-2 weeks till they learn what they have to do.

But were fleeing from the subject here. I think the difficulty mode presented to us on EC HM and TFB HM is pretty well made, specially on TFB HM.
But when you go to TFB HM and just have on the 1st boss, after you down him and you see for yourself that only 1 single piece of gear drops and it aint even from the new set, it just takes away all the urge to go and kill it again next week.
This isnt an incentive to peeps man, sure, killing bosses is an award on itself but its an emotional award not a material award, killing bosses MUST give you enough material awards to keep the urge to put your guildies in operation A, B or C, take out their loot numbers and ull see where the progression raiding guilds will start going, plainly because they will start loosing hardcore players around thus not having enough numbers to keep doing the new ops with this new philosophy.
1st boss on TFB HM deserve at least 1 dread guard set piece token and a hazmat piece. I can live with only 2 loot items but surelly as hell cant live in SWTOR TFB HM with 1 single loot drop. Thats just BS man.

Reguarding going in to farm EC NM excuse when it comes out, thats just again a lot of bull...
So BW is telling us to in order to grab dread guard set pieces that drop in the new content operation and that peeps are happy and excited to explore, they instead say to us that we need to go to EC NM in order to have more gear droppings?? So were supposed to go and farm again a place that weve been farming for over 2-3 months allready?? To complement the lack of loot numbers on the new one?? It doesnt add up man. I knew this was their intention but i surelly didnt know that i would be forced to do that. Going there cause i want to clear NM and going there cause i must complement the loot numbers from TFB HM are waaay different things.
Not to mention tha NM's should have a linear and progressive loot table from the HM of the current content.
If they had in the past made with EC HM for example, instead of Campaign dropping there, they putted Black hole as a gear with set bonus and on NM we would have campaign as it is right now, we would have that linear path.
Now on TFB they should have putted Hazmat as a set bonus gear for HM, with token drops and when NM mode camed out they would put the dread guard set. This is how things should have been done from the beginning not this mumbo jumbo of going back and going forward crap to farm content thats farmed for over 2-3 months now.
Operations should be made complete since their release with all the 3 difficulty modes available, with distinct sets of gear for each mode of difficulty.

I mean we were all having the " YAAYYYY" feeling when the boss went down and than we all went to the "What tha..?? Bleehhh...This must be a bug" feeling after seeing the loot, the loot numbers are really a turn off atm for TFB HM.

For me this is what SWTOR should have been from the beginning reguarding loot tables for an 8 man operation:

EV/KP SM - 2xTionese tokens
EV/KP HM - 2xColumi tokens
EV/KP NM - 2xRakata tokens
EC SM - 2xRakata tokens
EC HM - 2xBlack hole tokens
EC NM - 2xCampaign tokens (w/ increased item rating from what is now)
TFB SM - 2xCampaign tokens
TFB HM - 2xHazmat tokens
TFB NM - 2xDreadguard tokens (w/ increased item rating from what is now)

This will make casuals and hardcore players alike have ambitions to keep going for the next level of difficulty. It will also give casual/social players a chance to get more or less toe to toe with hardcore peeps in terms of gear. Also throw some bones on crafting gear that its at least HM equivalent, i aint saying to craft the exact same gear from HM's but some sort of equivalent gear that is on the current content HM.
I saw a dark explosion. I sensed a power within. I felt the urge, the rage, the power... I AM REBORN!!

Svii's Avatar


Svii
10.04.2012 , 05:34 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by anstalt View Post
My choice at the moment in guild is to either only take the best players to EC/TFB HM and thus alienate my other raiders or take less well played raiders and accept the fact that we're gonna wipe all night and waste everybodies time. I'm in a lose/lose position at the moment because there doesn't exist a raid in which to train well-geared-but-under-experieced raiders.
Lost Island HM is a nice place to start, it has many mechanics that are similar to EC. I think you need to accept the fact that not all players are dedicated enough or capable of EC/TFB HMs. I think most can learn, but there has to be a will. I understand it must be hard for a raid leader to leave people behind either because of gear or skill.

In my guild we have two players pools, Progression and Casual/Social with different requirements. People apply for a team and can switch if they want to be more hard core or relaxed. So far it works great for us and people understand that there must be requirements or else it will affect everyone. You probably do this already, but maybe be a bit stricter? hehe

Just trying to be helpful here

Svii - Sniper
Impetus Norvegicus
Bloodworthy => ToFN

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
10.04.2012 , 09:17 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Kophar View Post
At the cost of what? You think Denova NM will be on reach to every guild???! Hack, tons of guilds havent even cleared EC HM completelly, let alone start going to NM.
If they haven't completed HM EC yet, then they don't have the gear from it yet meaning they still need to farm HM EC. That's called "progression". It goes HM EC, THEN HM TFB / NiM EC. Can't just get to lvl 50 and expect to clear out HM EC, can you?

Sounds to me like your guild doesn't have EC HM on farm yet which means not everyone is geared out in full lvl 61 gear with matching weapons, right? If I'm right, then you're not ready for HM TFB yet.

As for the bosses dropping one token item, that is pretty lame, considering how bad the itemization the loot is. It is dumb to throttle the loot but not the ability to clear. Meaning the raids are still too easy. Our guild cleared HM TFB in the first week, then on "Loot Tuesday" we cleared it in one night. Um... lolwhat? I'm not saying this to brag because there are a number of guilds that cleared HM TFB first or second night of release. We weren't even server first. I'm just telling all of this to put it into context.

Right now, we're stuck to getting 5 token pieces for 8 raid members per week because they haven't released EC NiM yet. Yeah, it'll be good to be able to do 2 nights of raiding for clearing (course that'll probably be back to 1 night once we're able to go faster and faster) and 10 pieces of look per week, but I'm not every excited about seeing EC NiM. Sure the mechanics may be different, but we've spent so many hours in there that seeing the same pixels on the screen will suuuuuuuucccccck.

Pcolapat's Avatar


Pcolapat
10.04.2012 , 11:27 AM | #19
I actually like the way they limited the loot drops in this tier. It prevents players from getting fully geared in dread guard gear one month after the content is out. It makes the gear you get from there that much more valuable.
Anything that is done repetitively can be done by a computer. That is why right brained people will eventually rule the world.

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
10.04.2012 , 01:45 PM | #20
Thread's sort of gone off topic. If OPs are too difficult, that's sort of a different issue from the drops, which, I'm in total agreement with TC are insufficient. I just don't understand how Bioware could get so much right with the method of acquiring black hole/campaign gear and then switch to this.

Someone said it would take 8 weeks to gear up a raid. That's not out of the ordinary. But suppose the raid has 4 marauders and subs in nobody. Since each marauder requires 8 belts (most-needed mod is only available in the belt), it would take about 36 weeks for them to gear up--and this is assuming nobody gets subbed in or out ever. And that's also assuming Tanks or healers don't also have their most-needed mod in a belt, which they may very well.