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Consular PvE low DPS and other issues?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Consular PvE low DPS and other issues?

Karasuko's Avatar


Karasuko
10.02.2012 , 11:30 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by wolfyrik View Post
Thanks for this ever so insightful and helpful post. This is exactly the kind of learned discourse that really helps the community to grow.
[/sarcasm]

If I'm doing it worng, that suggests there's something very wrong with the game mechanics. There should never be a predfined set way to play in an mmo like this, there's even less excuse when the player is bombarded with so many skills. Seriously this is the worst game I've ever seen for excess skill baggage.

Rather than just spouting unhelpful, arrogant garbage, perhaps you could instead perhaps point out what rotatations in a prolonged fight might better handle resources?
Unfortunately the only guides that are availble are somewhat out of date.
Did you do some looking and thinking about how the patch notes interact with how things have changed? i'm guessing not.

We get an extra use of black out on combat start and an extra use of black out every 90 seconds. black out --->vanish---> blackout

Yes theres plenty of skills to use but most of them really have no place on a pver's bar except in specific circumstances. Ie no need for tumult,force wave TK throw on a DPS shadows bar.
I have my standard 6 buttons bound for core rotations, My F keys bound for CD's and some Ctrl keys bound for other stuff, I suck at key binding and don't use a fancy mouse yet i manage.

Theres nothing wrong with having a optimal way to play a toon, nobody is forcing you to play badly, there needs to be a way to seperate good players from bad.If it didn't matter what skills I used or how i used them there would be nothing pushing me to improve.


How was my post arrogant? blunt and straight to the point sure. I see alot of people blaming their laziness on "way to build a community" when they're the ones that could be doing something themselves to solve their issues.
Building a community has nothing to do with force feeding the lazy.

Teioh_White's Avatar


Teioh_White
10.02.2012 , 11:45 PM | #12
I dunno, one our dps is a Madness Sin, and he gets 1850 or so on a dummy, and parses even with the sniper and the mara in actual Ops.

Narthil's Avatar


Narthil
10.03.2012 , 11:06 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Karasuko View Post
I don't think they bumped our dps by that much, we're second class citizens now instead of 3rd class.
Here are the results of DPS using full campaign gear and best DPS rotation: http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign.html

That's a simulation of 50,000 combat iterations.
"Don't give people what they want, give them what they need"

Karasuko's Avatar


Karasuko
10.03.2012 , 09:03 PM | #14
I don't rely on simcraft. Its not a real measure of classes DPS when actually incombat with a raid boss.
It is a nice tool for gauging approx dps a class is pulling it is by no means law.

And thats old news that madness/balance is a top parsing spec btw, It hasn't been updated to acoomadate the 1.4 changes. If you look at that listing it also doesn't have sents/mara's on it which is a pretty glaring oversight

scionofhorus's Avatar


scionofhorus
10.04.2012 , 04:11 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by wolfyrik View Post
If I'm doing it worng, that suggests there's something very wrong with the game mechanics. There should never be a predfined set way to play in an mmo like this, there's even less excuse when the player is bombarded with so many skills.
The other day, I was learning to tank by queueing up for some HMs, and there was a Shadow using a single-bladed saber not using any melee attacks basically using only Project and TK Throw.

There most certainly is a way to do it wrong.

I wouldn't mind seeing Infiltration get some DPS love, mainly because of how incredibly difficult Balance is to play. I put in much more work to play and put up less numbers than the Watchman Sentinels; very unrewarding.

wolfyrik's Avatar


wolfyrik
10.04.2012 , 04:24 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Karasuko View Post
Did you do some looking and thinking about how the patch notes interact with how things have changed? i'm guessing not.

We get an extra use of black out on combat start and an extra use of black out every 90 seconds. black out --->vanish---> blackout

Yes theres plenty of skills to use but most of them really have no place on a pver's bar except in specific circumstances. Ie no need for tumult,force wave TK throw on a DPS shadows bar.
I have my standard 6 buttons bound for core rotations, My F keys bound for CD's and some Ctrl keys bound for other stuff, I suck at key binding and don't use a fancy mouse yet i manage.

Theres nothing wrong with having a optimal way to play a toon, nobody is forcing you to play badly, there needs to be a way to seperate good players from bad.If it didn't matter what skills I used or how i used them there would be nothing pushing me to improve.


How was my post arrogant? blunt and straight to the point sure. I see alot of people blaming their laziness on "way to build a community" when they're the ones that could be doing something themselves to solve their issues.
Building a community has nothing to do with force feeding the lazy.
No the problem is that by having an "optimal way to play" players are made bad, not by being bad players but because they don't want to use the same 6 skills out of twenty, as everyone else.
If creativity leads only to a weaker outcome be it DPS loss or resource loss, that's a flaw in game mechanics. Afterall, if it was the design that every player of a specific class and tree use exactly the same moves, they shouldn'ty have written so many skills and hotbars, instead adopting a more focused approach akin to DCUO or Guild Wars 1/2.

Sure those games have more optimal builds but overall, choice of skills that weren't the opitmal could still be made to work very well by a decent enough player. It's not a matter of skill to know which 6 skills in which order to press, any chimp can learn to press 6 buttons in a sequence. Player skill derives from speed, accuracy (ok not accuracy so much in a game like this), reaction, adaptive behaviour and creativity. Swtor seem to severely punish creativty. Probably because most talent trees only affect two or three skills rather than overall gameplay.

You may find satisfaction in finding the optimal build and skill rotation for pure dps, but not all of us are pure number crunchers, I'd prefer to have the option to play how I want to play, use the skills I want to use and still be capable of producing a good outcome by playing well. For example, I really, realy hate project. It's an ugly *** skill which severly breaks the flow of combat and has no place in a melee build. Except that for some bizarre reason half of the main shadow talents are built around it. For Pete's sake why? Why just that one skill? Why not Low Slash which would be a great skill for all shadow trees, or Force pull, which would also be great for all shadow trees? Why not shadow strike since that's already available to all shadows or Whirling Blow which is basically useless and defintely needs improvement?
Even WoW, hateful as it is, allowed for player creativity.....or at least it used to. The latest version looks terrible.

Your original post was arrogant by it's intonation. May not have been intended but that's the problem with text, especially in short sentences. Oh and I did look at the patch notes thank you, another arrogant assumption on your part, but even with the changes taken into account, energy comsumption seems worse to me.

THorsblood's Avatar


THorsblood
10.04.2012 , 04:37 AM | #17
This is how MMO's are played (and even how KoToR is played)
Good rotations get used, and some skills collect dust, it happens, those other skills are only useful for certain things that don't normally apply.

You can get by quests with basically whatever rotation you want so long as your companion is geared up nicely so they can help were your lacking. But the game mechanics are fine (could use some tweaking but that's also MMO nature they NEVER stop tweaking lol). At least in this game you don't have to worry about attacks per second...PWI I can't say I miss you...at all...not even a little bit...SO glad for the GCD lol.
"Killing is bad and wrong. There should be a new stronger word for killing like Bad-wrong or Badong. Yes killing is Badong." ~ The Chosen One ~ Kung Pow

scionofhorus's Avatar


scionofhorus
10.04.2012 , 04:42 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by wolfyrik View Post
You may find satisfaction in finding the optimal build and skill rotation for pure dps, but not all of us are pure number crunchers, I'd prefer to have the option to play how I want to play, use the skills I want to use and still be capable of producing a good outcome by playing well. For example, I really, realy hate project. It's an ugly *** skill which severly breaks the flow of combat and has no place in a melee build. Except that for some bizarre reason half of the main shadow talents are built around it. For Pete's sake why? Why just that one skill? Why not Low Slash which would be a great skill for all shadow trees, or Force pull, which would also be great for all shadow trees? Why not shadow strike since that's already available to all shadows or Whirling Blow which is basically useless and defintely needs improvement?
Even WoW, hateful as it is, allowed for player creativity.....or at least it used to. The latest version looks terrible.
So... let me get this straight: you're expecting to be able to do whatever you want and get comparable numbers with someone who optimizes?

Do you not understand how absurd that is?

wolfyrik's Avatar


wolfyrik
10.04.2012 , 04:47 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Karasuko View Post
Did you do some looking and thinking about how the patch notes interact with how things have changed? i'm guessing not.

We get an extra use of black out on combat start and an extra use of black out every 90 seconds. black out --->vanish---> blackout

Yes theres plenty of skills to use but most of them really have no place on a pver's bar except in specific circumstances. Ie no need for tumult,force wave TK throw on a DPS shadows bar.
I have my standard 6 buttons bound for core rotations, My F keys bound for CD's and some Ctrl keys bound for other stuff, I suck at key binding and don't use a fancy mouse yet i manage.

Theres nothing wrong with having a optimal way to play a toon, nobody is forcing you to play badly, there needs to be a way to seperate good players from bad.If it didn't matter what skills I used or how i used them there would be nothing pushing me to improve.


How was my post arrogant? blunt and straight to the point sure. I see alot of people blaming their laziness on "way to build a community" when they're the ones that could be doing something themselves to solve their issues.
Building a community has nothing to do with force feeding the lazy.
No the problem is that by having an "optimal way to play" players are made bad, not by being bad players but because they don't want to use the same 6 skills out of twenty, as everyone else.
If creativity leads only to a weaker outcome be it DPS loss or resource loss, that's a flaw in game mechanics. Afterall, if it was the design that every player of a specific class and tree use exactly the same moves, they shouldn'ty have written so many skills and hotbars, instead adopting a more focused approach akin to DCUO or Guild Wars 1/2.

Sure those games have more optimal builds but overall, choice of skills that weren't the opitmal could still be made to work very well by a decent enough player. It's not a matter of skill to know which 6 skills in which order to press, any chimp can learn to press 6 buttons in a sequence. Player skill derives from speed, accuracy (ok not accuracy so much in a game like this), reaction, adaptive behaviour and creativity. Swtor seem to severely punish creativty. Probably because most talent trees only affect two or three skills rather than overall gameplay.

You may find satisfaction in finding the optimal build and skill rotation for pure dps, but not all of us are pure number crunchers, I'd prefer to have the option to play how I want to play, use the skills I want to use and still be capable of producing a good outcome by playing well. For example, I really, realy hate project. It's an ugly *** skill which severly breaks the flow of combat and has no place in a melee build. Except that for some bizarre reason half of the main shadow talents are built around it. For Pete's sake why? Why just that one skill? Why not Low Slash which would be a great skill for all shadow trees, or Force pull, which would also be great for all shadow trees? Why not shadow strike since that's already available to all shadows or Whirling Blow which is basically useless and defintely needs improvement?
Even WoW, hateful as it is, allowed for player creativity.....or at least it used to. The latest version looks terrible.

Your original post was arrogant by it's intonation. May not have been intended but that's the problem with text, especially in short sentences. Oh and I did look at the patch notes thank you, another arrogant assumption on your part, but even with the changes taken into account, energy comsumption seems worse to me.

PPAlien's Avatar


PPAlien
10.04.2012 , 10:22 PM | #20
Ok, first of all, SimC does point out we are the highest dps class, but it is not possible to get near it, it is a guide only.

Secondly, our dps is not that bad. I am generally equalling my raids sentinel and commando dps, even with slightly less gear. You have to run Balance or Madness spec if you want the best dps. I tried to stay with infiltration at first, but balance is much better. The main reason we can't get near our SimC results is because the amount of proc and dot watching is quite difficult. We have one of the hardest rotations of DPS classes force management wise so it will take a lot of work to match that of the other classes.

Basically, keep working at it, spec balance tree and you will not be saying you are underpowered. Also, one thing to note, you will not get as high a dps parse on the dummies as you hope due to SimC as balance as you have no armour reduction, infiltration has this, but as balance get a group with a guardian or gunslinger or someone else with armour reduction buffs and then hit up the dummy.