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Here's Where We, The Community, Went Wrong

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Community
Here's Where We, The Community, Went Wrong

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
10.02.2012 , 10:57 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by tiennen View Post
Never once have I stated that my opinions are a FACT.
Not once? Granted, you didn't say "THESE R FACTS", but here are a few examples of where I feel you've stated your opinion as fact:
Quote: Originally Posted by tiennen View Post
The MMO-hungry mob is never going to be pleased with a game

There was a lot of hate directed at this game early in its life, and that hampered the growth that could have happened.
Quote: Originally Posted by tiennen View Post
This happens with EVERY MMO. Has happened with EVERY MMO in the past 10 years.
Quote: Originally Posted by tiennen View Post
A few angry kids, even a few thousand, will not prevent a game's success, but they will hamper it.
Back on topic...

I will not take ANY blame for the state the game is in. I will not take ANY responsibility for running players off. I would like nothing more than for SWTOR to be a MASSIVE success (to EA, not you) and avoid F2P. I continue to do more than my part to try to keep players and I resent being told I share ANY responsibility for a games inability to retain them.
All warfare is based on deception. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected. If his forces are united, separate them. If you are far from the enemy, make him believe you are near. A leader leads by example not by force.

tiennen's Avatar


tiennen
10.02.2012 , 12:09 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
Not once? Granted, you didn't say "THESE R FACTS", but here are a few examples of where I feel you've stated your opinion as fact:



Back on topic...

I will not take ANY blame for the state the game is in. I will not take ANY responsibility for running players off. I would like nothing more than for SWTOR to be a MASSIVE success (to EA, not you) and avoid F2P. I continue to do more than my part to try to keep players and I resent being told I share ANY responsibility for a games inability to retain them.
Why is going F2P always looks at like "Oh, this game failed hard". It will most likely bring a much larger audience to the game, and bring in more revenue as a F2P game than it would as a sub-based game. Still, this is purely speculation, but it can be seen in the model of DCUO, and many of other F2P games that sport this model. DDO is another good example of a F2P game that is still going strong, not to mention all of the Korean MMO's out there (Eden Eternal, Aika Online, etc.)

Contrary to popular belief, an MMO going F2P doesn't necessarily mean it "failed". EA is probably just realizing that the age of sub-based MMO's is dead.

Once again, this is all my opinion. I guess I need to specifically state whether or not something is an opinion or not, since you can't tell the difference.

The_Brick's Avatar


The_Brick
10.02.2012 , 10:26 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by tiennen View Post
Why is going F2P always looks at like "Oh, this game failed hard". It will most likely bring a much larger audience to the game, and bring in more revenue as a F2P game than it would as a sub-based game. Still, this is purely speculation, but it can be seen in the model of DCUO, and many of other F2P games that sport this model. DDO is another good example of a F2P game that is still going strong, not to mention all of the Korean MMO's out there (Eden Eternal, Aika Online, etc.)

Contrary to popular belief, an MMO going F2P doesn't necessarily mean it "failed". EA is probably just realizing that the age of sub-based MMO's is dead.

Once again, this is all my opinion. I guess I need to specifically state whether or not something is an opinion or not, since you can't tell the difference.
I heard WoW is implementing F2P or already has, idk, it's been over three years since I've played WoW or even logged into my battle.net account.

The reason why more and more games are going F2P is because they have reliable data that they can make more money. Now it may not make any sense because it is free to play, but the microtransactions in most F2P's have shown to be more lucrative than subscriptions. This is why there is talk of next gen consoles going the way of microtransactions and games that you never actually purchase or own, but rather download and pay to play and/or F2P w/ microtransactions.

Goretzu's Avatar


Goretzu
10.03.2012 , 03:50 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
That's a little strong. We all are here for the same reason I assume...we want the game to succeed. Blaming US (the community) for the games shortcomings is just ignorant of reality. We all, even the ones who have quit, gave the game a shot.

Being critical of what we don't like is being honest, not hypocritical. WE know why people have left. Some of us have been here from before the start even. We know what people would like. We know what the complaints are. We play this game and are active with others who do and did. We hear the frustration in VoIP and guild chats. I don't post to be a jackhole, I post because I DO care. I care more about the people who have quit, or are planning to quit, than Bioware seems to.


Indeed shooting the messengaer might be an old tradition, but it never has and never will be a helpful one.

Fixing the issues is the helpful course of action.
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too?
Goretzu's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving "Entitled" approaches 1

Goretzu's Avatar


Goretzu
10.03.2012 , 03:55 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by tiennen View Post
Why is going F2P always looks at like "Oh, this game failed hard". It will most likely bring a much larger audience to the game, and bring in more revenue as a F2P game than it would as a sub-based game. Still, this is purely speculation, but it can be seen in the model of DCUO, and many of other F2P games that sport this model. DDO is another good example of a F2P game that is still going strong, not to mention all of the Korean MMO's out there (Eden Eternal, Aika Online, etc.)

Contrary to popular belief, an MMO going F2P doesn't necessarily mean it "failed". EA is probably just realizing that the age of sub-based MMO's is dead.

Once again, this is all my opinion. I guess I need to specifically state whether or not something is an opinion or not, since you can't tell the difference.


I've not played DCUO, but DDO is often used as an example of the wonders of F2P, but DDO is a strange beast, it was never a MMORPG in the traditional sense, it always seemed designed as a F2P buy as you play Multiplayer-cashshop driven multi-player DnD game.

Which was probably why it tanked as a subscription MMO, when it went F2P it basically had 3 players and one of the Devs dogs playing it.

LOTRO is a much better example, but as it showed, athough F2P brings in more active accounts, unless those active accounts are spending an average of $15 a month then the numbers are misleading.

And as LOTRO shows (and CoH for that matter), F2P numbers tail off too.




SWTOR is bound to get a surge in active accounts with F2P, but whether those accounts will be spending an average of $15 a month and whether they'll still be around 12 months after F2P is a different kettle of fish.
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too?
Goretzu's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving "Entitled" approaches 1

TheOnlyHope's Avatar


TheOnlyHope
10.03.2012 , 04:38 AM | #46
I get so tired of people complaining every single update.

At least this publisher decides to update the game at all. I've been in MMORPG's where the company swears up and down for new content, and when it does finally come out, it's full of holes, highly exploitable glitches, and packed full of excuses as to why. (They once blamed China's different gaming culture. lolnope.)

Compared to all the stuff I've seen happen in the past, BioWare and EA have done a brilliant job here, considering how young this game is, and what they had to work with.

People who complain and throw tantrums every time there's an update, or EA doesn't release something they said would come out "LATER" (which means, later and not "in the next patch",) need to keep it to themselves, or just uninstall the game and leave. I'm glad there's a blacklisting funciton, because all the moaning and whining just drags down the mood in general and makes the game less fun to play.

I do personally believe it's more the fault of the players than the company.

simplius's Avatar


simplius
10.03.2012 , 04:47 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by tiennen View Post
The poison and bile that was spit out of many of our forum-goers early on in this game's life was, sadly, expected for me.

I think that many of them may have been on the forums in many other games, sptting their poison there before they left:

WAR
Rift
Aion
GW2 -- very recent

It has become common for forums to be crowded with people "unhappy" with their playing experience within a month of getting the game, and many of them are former WoW players who expected the game to be as polished as their beloved Panda-Land (not always the case, I started with WoW, but have never really complained about any other MMOs)

I believe it wasn't the "mediocrity" of this game that "ruined" it, it was the ignorant, entitled players themselves. This game is great. It is like KOTOR 3, with multiplayer. There are a lot of people that would argue with me, but it is my strong opinion that SW:TOR is one of the best MMO's out there right now, even surpassing WoW in qaulity of gameplay. (I went back to WoW for a couple days, it was boring and the gameplay was absolutely stale, questing made me want to gouge out my eyes)
u like the game..fine,,but the majority of subs didnt leave because they were happy

were all in the same bus, we all paid the same, the bus should go to where the majority wants it to go

and that is=casual players and easy gameplay,,anything else should be optional

simplius's Avatar


simplius
10.03.2012 , 04:53 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by TheOnlyHope View Post
I get so tired of people complaining every single update.

At least this publisher decides to update the game at all. I've been in MMORPG's where the company swears up and down for new content, and when it does finally come out, it's full of holes, highly exploitable glitches, and packed full of excuses as to why. (They once blamed China's different gaming culture. lolnope.)

Compared to all the stuff I've seen happen in the past, BioWare and EA have done a brilliant job here, considering how young this game is, and what they had to work with.

People who complain and throw tantrums every time there's an update, or EA doesn't release something they said would come out "LATER" (which means, later and not "in the next patch",) need to keep it to themselves, or just uninstall the game and leave. I'm glad there's a blacklisting funciton, because all the moaning and whining just drags down the mood in general and makes the game less fun to play.

I do personally believe it's more the fault of the players than the company.
6 years development? 200 mio$? EA and BWs experience? and the SW brand on it was a sure box sale

they deliver a small, uncomplete game, (good VOs though),,yes im disappointed, and so where lots of others

Mithros's Avatar


Mithros
10.03.2012 , 10:51 AM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by MilesTheFox View Post

Believing it would compete with World of Warcraft.
They were partly responsible for this as well.

I just don't understand the player-base's fascination with a mythical 'WoW-killer', though.
A whole lot of the WoW hate is coming from people whom I have no doubt used to play and enjoy WoW, but somewhere along the line they decided that it became 'uncool', and so now they hate it because that must, by default, be the 'cool' thing to do.

I just don't see why a player is so worried about what other people are playing and enjoying.

Bioware was encouraging the same behavior ("SWTOR is going to kill WoW! I play WoW! I had better jump over to SWTOR now so I can look cool when I badmouth WoW as it starts to die!").

Bioware was wrong, and the behavior is still stupid.

Quote:
A stellar RPG DOES NOT equal a stellar MMO.
Yeah, but this isn't news.

Stellar MMO = Stellar MMO.
Now you can get into a debate about what makes a stellar MMO, but a few things that might make the list are all things that the Star Wars universe has.
The rest are brought in by the game developers and writers.

A stellar RPG may not make for a stellar MMO, but there is nothing that says that a setting that was used in a stellar RPG couldn't also be used in a stellar MMO.
They are not mutually exclusive.


Quote:
We should not be allowed to complain about a lack of content for the entire first year.
Not be allowed? That's a little bit totalitarian, isn't it?

Besides, there is a fine line, sometimes, between a complaint and a suggestion.
Doesn't every suggestion basically equate to a complaint? Why would I suggest that something should be included unless I was complaining about it being excluded? Why would I suggest that something be changed unless I had a complaint about how it worked now?

It would be nice if people would understand that things take time to create and all of that, but what about features and tools that were absent at launch?
I mean, I think that people complaining about there not being a hundred end-game operations at launch is silly, but people complaining about the lack of a 'barber shop/tailor'? People complaining that the species list was a little lacking, or the even the customization of the species that are in the game? Not so much.

Miralukans can't grow facial hair? Cyborgs can only have facial hair if they select one of the few cybernetic options that includes a predetermined facial hair design?

Even the legacy stuff... Only trooper humans can have tattoos? Only BH humans can paint/tattoo their faces? Why not other humans?
And if it is a class thing, why not other species within those same classes?

Those all qualify as lack of content, too.

And anyway, we are fast approaching that year. Pretend that no one has complained about anything so far. Where are we now?
Are the things that people are complaining about now going to be gone in three months?

Quote:
This game is not about having one character and getting better and better and better gear (that's actually what I detest most about MMO's). No, the Legacy system was built around re-rolling once you hit 50, to experience another story, and the Legacy system gave you options to have a small leg-up with a new character.
And this is a ridiculous statement.

Do you think that they built the game so that every player would roll 8 characters and then quit?
Of course not. They built it as an MMO with the hopes that everyone would have their favorite characters that they would come back to, even after they had already hit 50.

If it was only about the class story, then why did they include non-story content? Why include repeatable endgame content that wouldn't be run until the class stories were completed, anyway?
Beta Squadron 157

As long as we remember, it's never really gone.

PalihoJ's Avatar


PalihoJ
10.04.2012 , 04:06 AM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by tiennen View Post
The poison and bile that was spit out of many of our forum-goers early on in this game's life was, sadly, expected for me.

I think that many of them may have been on the forums in many other games, sptting their poison there before they left:

WAR
Rift
Aion
GW2 -- very recent

It has become common for forums to be crowded with people "unhappy" with their playing experience within a month of getting the game, and many of them are former WoW players who expected the game to be as polished as their beloved Panda-Land (not always the case, I started with WoW, but have never really complained about any other MMOs)

I believe it wasn't the "mediocrity" of this game that "ruined" it, it was the ignorant, entitled players themselves. This game is great. It is like KOTOR 3, with multiplayer. There are a lot of people that would argue with me, but it is my strong opinion that SW:TOR is one of the best MMO's out there right now, even surpassing WoW in qaulity of gameplay. (I went back to WoW for a couple days, it was boring and the gameplay was absolutely stale, questing made me want to gouge out my eyes)
I agree with this 100%, about the over entitled little snowflakes looking for something to whine about and the high enjoyment factor of TOR.
I went back to WoW for about 2 weeks in July (my wife talked me into leveling a character with her)...I have to admit the experience was actually painful, I dreaded logging on. How I spent so many years playing that game I don't know! TOR is vastly superior in every department other than system performance (I don't have a great gaming PC), that said I'm not massivly into raiding and that is one of WoW strong points.