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no more black hole comms in story EC?

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

moonshoter's Avatar


moonshoter
09.28.2012 , 12:39 PM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
"Added it"? Isn't this the weekly quest that if you progressed a certain distance in the operation (be it story mode, hard more, or nightmare mode) you would complete the quest and get BH comms?

If so, that's always been there so there was nothing to add. The only thing different in 1.4 is you made it easier to complete by making it the Tanks instead of the Colonel to complete the quest and through in some Daily comms I think. Still, you didn't add BM comms as a reward, you may have just changed the qty.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

It use the BE the forth boss on any mode for 6 coms i think so were was it added like youn said , hes mistaken in saying that, it shows he acttly knows nothing about the game we thought he did and was prolly to told to say that not thinking ......

PanzerKraken's Avatar


PanzerKraken
09.28.2012 , 12:39 PM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
I asked Ahmad Zabarah (a Senior Designer) to share some more details about this change. The reason we removed the Commendations from Story Mode is that it is our goal to separate Story Mode Operations from Operation progression going forwards. In the previous setup, Story Mode was the best way to farm Black Hole Commendations, which wasn't our intent for the different difficultly modes. Going forward, Hard Mode and Nightmare mode will be the source of progression in Operations. We did, however, add Black Hole Commendations to the weekly Explosive Conflict mission, so you can also obtain the Commendations that way.
That makes no sense since story mode was the stepping stone players needed to do to progress to the hard modes and nightmares. Right now our guilds still haven't done hardmode EC and doing storymode was how we were preparing for that but now we barely get anything.

This is just a horrible change and it's going to lock out players eventually when story mode difficulties continue to rise.

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
09.28.2012 , 12:41 PM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
But the gear progression just makes no sense to me. And with this change, makes even less sense.
Actually, the gear progression is fine. Get to Lvl 50, do HM FP's and get Columi gear. Do HM EV/KP and get Rakata gear or do SM TFB and SM EC to get Rakata gear. Then do HM EC and HM TFB. The BH comms you can collect from dailies and weeklies should just be incentive to put more hours into this game or to also help you sort of gear past the benchmark for certain bosses.

Simil's Avatar


Simil
09.28.2012 , 12:46 PM | #104
This game would have been so much more popular if they had stopped trying to ram a storyline down everyone's throat.
ess.

homeyj's Avatar


homeyj
09.28.2012 , 12:51 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
You're missing the point and not understanding the reasoning they keep saying as to why they are separating SM from HM/NiM.
I don't disagree that is what they are 'saying'. I'm merely saying that if they really wanted to separate them they would have them share a lockout and you could do A (story time) or B (progression time). Perhaps a better option is to just remove the loot, lockout, and further reduce the difficulty of story time so that people who want to expericent the story can do that.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
Back in the old days of raiding there wasn't an easy and a hard mode. There was just one mode, and it was challenging. In fact, in Vanilla WoW before it's first expansion there was a raid called Naxxramus. There was a large % of the population very upset that they couldn't complete the raid (we'll call them The Casuals). So those who did complete it or were trying to and accepted the way things were (we'll call them The Hardcore) told The Casuals that they had to work at it. "If you wanted to see the ending to the game you had to master the levels to it."
I remember them well and I think the rumblings of "I can't do naxx?" were very minimal. It was understood that Naxx was a tough place to be and 40 people geared and attuned people were hard to find. I think Blizz said 7% of people saw it the first time around which is why the content was recycled.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
The common response from The Casuals was, "I pay the same amount of money as The Hardcore. It's not fair I don't get to see all the content! I'm not after the loot, but I deserve to see all of this work that Blizzard employees are putting into stuff that I pay for."

And that's where we are today. Now The Casuals can experience all of that wonderful content. If you're still complaining, then it's about the loot. If you want the loot, then rise to the challenge and/or put the work in.
I think that the casuals would then side with my above idea and i think that should satisfy both them and the 'hardcore' that are left in the game. Furthermore I think that following the 'story time' model, TFB (as well as EC) should be accessable on the same difficulty level as EV/KP in that it requires only Tionese to complete and drops Columi. I mean if we are going to say these people are just here for the 'story' then why are we gating their content based on gear anyway?

yoshua's Avatar


yoshua
09.28.2012 , 12:53 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
I find it funny that no one gets the big picture:
- Story mode is to experience the story and taste the content.
- Hard mode is for the actual challenge of raiding.

You don't need fantastic gear to experience the story. If you want to get the best gear, then set foot in the hardest content. Or grind out the extra hours by doing daily HM's every day and the weekly missions to get your BH year. You can still make over 50 BH comms a week w/out setting foot in a HM if you really want to gear progress. But running around in SM EC where it just got nerfed even more-so to spend 1.5-2 hrs a week to add an extra 20 BH comms was just overkill. Grinding 7 HM FP's a week takes more work than 1 SM EC and more dedication to the time.

If you really care about gear progression, but can't handle HM Ops yet, then here's how you can progress:
Lvl 50
Regular D7, Battle of Ilum, False Emperor - for better gear
SM EV, SM KP, HM FP's, Dailies, Buy mods and such from AH with Daily Quest Credits
SM EC, HM EV, HM KP, SM TFB
HM EC
HM TFB

There are several ways to get Dread Gear w/out even setting foot in HM TFB. You can get credits and wait for them to sell on the AH? Don't like the price? Then do the hardest content. It's that simple. You can either put in more effort or more time to get Dread Gear. And let's not forget that Dread Gear isn't even fantastic. The itemizations are terrible so buying the pieces off the AH may be smarter than running HM TFB over and over (like Marauders who need 10 freakin' belts just to get BiS for their Mod - good job FailWare!)

Still, for people who are complaining about the loss of BH comms from easy-mode EC there's still plenty of ways to obtain BH comms. In the end, SM EC isn't even half of the BH comms you can earn in a week. This game and every other MMO is already going the way of catering to the casual. Just imagine playing 8 years ago in WoW when there wasn't an easy-mode of raids and the only way to get the best loot was to kill bosses in those raids... bosses that weren't killed the first night they were released to the public, but instead took months of time. Imagine that!

Yeah, those days are gone, and this is what we have now. I'm just trying to give those people crying some perspective on the matter.
I find it funny that I do get what you are saying, but you are failing to realize you can't run EC or TFB story mode in columi which defeats the purpose of saying it is only for content and story. You have to have Rakata plus to do either of those. No longer makes your statements true when put under an honest light.

EC SM should provide bh comms to provide you a way to run EC HM, or EV or KP HM should provide BH comms to run EC HM

Right now, neither of that happens, so progression is broken. I find it funny that you made an entire post and didnt realize this. So now that we are all laughing can we get back on topic on how progression is currently broken and we would like someone from Bioware to explain what they believe the current progression is?

Doing dailies for 3 months to get black hole gear to progress in raids is not progression.
Yoshua Acero
Pre-Cu Bria Vet - Master Doc/Master swords

Paid 15$ at Gamestop for my CE!

Coldin's Avatar


Coldin
09.28.2012 , 12:59 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Basil_Evenstar View Post
Wow, terrible idea.
Care to go into more detail?

The main concern would be that players could gear up with Blackhole faster. Personally, I don't see that as problem, but some people have issues with that.

yoshua's Avatar


yoshua
09.28.2012 , 01:02 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
Care to go into more detail?

The main concern would be that players could gear up with Blackhole faster. Personally, I don't see that as problem, but some people have issues with that.
I can't speak for them, and I wouldnt have been so blunt, but I'll elaborate why I feel it is the wrong direction.


More BH for doing a single act isnt the solution, we already get bh from hm ec from the bosses. Spreading out the amount of work to be done for BH is the solution which is why tier 2 ops story modes should drop a small amount of black hole comms to help progress to actually doing tier 2 hard modes.


That way you have the ability to get more for doing more work, not get more for doing less work.
Yoshua Acero
Pre-Cu Bria Vet - Master Doc/Master swords

Paid 15$ at Gamestop for my CE!

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
09.28.2012 , 01:14 PM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by yoshua View Post
I find it funny that I do get what you are saying, but you are failing to realize you can't run EC or TFB story mode in columi which defeats the purpose of saying it is only for content and story. You have to have Rakata plus to do either of those. No longer makes your statements true when put under an honest light.
Didn't BW say you were supposed to be able to complete TFB and EC in Columi level gear? If they believe that then you're wrong and my statement stands true.

Quote: Originally Posted by yoshua View Post
EC SM should provide bh comms to provide you a way to run EC HM, or EV or KP HM should provide BH comms to run EC HM
You're supposed to be able to beat EC HM while wearing Rakata gear. Guilds were doing it in full Rakata. It wasn't balanced for wearing full BH gear that was fully augmented and EC HM has gotten easier since it was first released. So getting bh comms from SM is over-gearing for the HM you are trying to do.

Quote: Originally Posted by yoshua View Post
...so progression is broken. I find it funny that you made an entire post and didnt realize this. So now that we are all laughing can we get back on topic on how progression is currently broken and we would like someone from Bioware to explain what they believe the current progression is?
Once again, you're wrong. You should't need to do Story Modes to complete Hard Modes. That's not how they have been stating progression has to be. You can do HM FP's to get gear (Columi) for HM EV/KP or SM EC/TFB (which require Rakata). You can then get gear from those (Rakata) to complete HM EC/TFB (BH, Campaign, and Dread Guard).

Quote: Originally Posted by yoshua View Post
Doing dailies for 3 months to get black hole gear to progress in raids is not progression.
Hate to break it to you, but for BiS progression people would have to run HM TFB for a few months just to farm all the multiple tokens they'll need to BiS their gear so it's the same thing. And if you're just talking about non-mod-switched BH gear, that's something like 440 BH Comms (give or take a few). If you did every daily/weekly outside of HM EC and HM TFB, you get something like 55 comms a week? That's 8 weeks, which is just shy of 2 months. And 2 months of grinding to get gear is about the average for what raiders would do (if not longer).

Please review what I said and put some thought into your response because your post was basically wrong. I do understand the side point people are making in that why should any of the story modes have gated content. But we seem to accept that you need some gear when hitting 50 before you should do SM EV/KP so why shouldn't there be some gear between SM EV/KP and SM EC/TFB? If not, then you might as well allow a character when he/she turns 50 to zone into some version of each operation and solo all the content by giving them godmode with no gear dropping just so they can see all the content. But are any of you really asking for that? I believe BW is just trying to make an easier version of the carrot-stick for those that still want to hop on the ol' hamster wheel but not have to try as hard.

Also...
Quote: Originally Posted by yoshua View Post
More BH for doing a single act isnt the solution, we already get bh from hm ec from the bosses. Spreading out the amount of work to be done for BH is the solution which is why tier 2 ops story modes should drop a small amount of black hole comms to help progress to actually doing tier 2 hard modes.

That way you have the ability to get more for doing more work, not get more for doing less work.
They're trying to make it that you don't have to do any SM Operations to progress to Hardmode. Basically, for those who want to do HM's they shouldn't have to do both SM and HM for the fastest gear progression. And for those that don't like the challenge of HM's but want to be able to kill Big Bosses they can do so w/out ever having to step in a Hardmore. Got it?

yoshua's Avatar


yoshua
09.28.2012 , 01:48 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
Didn't BW say you were supposed to be able to complete TFB and EC in Columi level gear? If they believe that then you're wrong and my statement stands true.
Not anywhere I saw. And I've ran TFB SM, and theres no way a full un modded no augmented columi group is going to clear that. Would love to see that fraps video. The last boss is way too healer intesive to keep people up in just columi

Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
You're supposed to be able to beat EC HM while wearing Rakata gear. Guilds were doing it in full Rakata. It wasn't balanced for wearing full BH gear that was fully augmented and EC HM has gotten easier since it was first released. So getting bh comms from SM is over-gearing for the HM you are trying to do.
No, you arent, you are supposed to access it in Rakata and progress getting the BH/Campaign gear until you have enough gear to down Kephess. That is how progression works. Guilds weren't doing it in full Rakata. Please show me proof of the statement. Guilds don't even take new people into this without the members having at least half 146 gear already. You make a statement, I raid weekly and I know what our guild brings through. We have had EC HM on farm for a while.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
Once again, you're wrong. You should't need to do Story Modes to complete Hard Modes. That's not how they have been stating progression has to be. You can do HM FP's to get gear (Columi) for HM EV/KP or SM EC/TFB (which require Rakata). You can then get gear from those (Rakata) to complete HM EC/TFB (BH, Campaign, and Dread Guard).
How do you get gear for the first hard mode then? Please explain. Previously it was get the gear from the story modes and progress into hard modes. Now that progression has been removed. Please explain with that progression gone how it is meant to be done? K thanks.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
Hate to break it to you, but for BiS progression people would have to run HM TFB for a few months just to farm all the multiple tokens they'll need to BiS their gear so it's the same thing. And if you're just talking about non-mod-switched BH gear, that's something like 440 BH Comms (give or take a few). If you did every daily/weekly outside of HM EC and HM TFB, you get something like 55 comms a week? That's 8 weeks, which is just shy of 2 months. And 2 months of grinding to get gear is about the average for what raiders would do (if not longer).
True, BiS people would. You don't need BiS to complete the content. 55 coms a week is a piece of bh gear a week Plus if you are lucky/good enough to get the gear drops. 12 items at 35-60 coms each. With the progression removed will take much longer than 2 months. And NO ONE outside of the hardest of gamers are going to run EVERY daily and EVERY weekly. So, even if your figures are right, that is someone who does nothing but plays swtor every day for about 4-8 hours a day. Yeah, that is feasible.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
Please review what I said and put some thought into your response because your post was basically wrong. I do understand the side point people are making in that why should any of the story modes have gated content. But we seem to accept that you need some gear when hitting 50 before you should do SM EV/KP so why shouldn't there be some gear between SM EV/KP and SM EC/TFB? If not, then you might as well allow a character when he/she turns 50 to zone into some version of each operation and solo all the content by giving them godmode with no gear dropping just so they can see all the content. But are any of you really asking for that? I believe BW is just trying to make an easier version of the carrot-stick for those that still want to hop on the ol' hamster wheel but not have to try as hard.
Story modes are gated, you've provided no proof that TFB is can be downed in un modded columi, and no one has posted it. It is at minimum a mix of Rakta, with a smattering of columi. I've been in 2 runs that had issues bringing down the final boss in almost full campaign. LoL columi. Once the mechanics were worked out it was done, but in full campaign it should have just been a face roll.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
Also...
They're trying to make it that you don't have to do any SM Operations to progress to Hardmode. Basically, for those who want to do HM's they shouldn't have to do both SM and HM for the fastest gear progression. And for those that don't like the challenge of HM's but want to be able to kill Big Bosses they can do so w/out ever having to step in a Hardmore. Got it?
So, if your last statement is spot on. What is the progression to be able to raid? I mean in hard modes? From every thing you said? Dailies. No thank you. I want to raid to progress. Not run dailies until I can get into hard modes. That isnt progression, it is a growth stunt to make you grind out dailies.
Yoshua Acero
Pre-Cu Bria Vet - Master Doc/Master swords

Paid 15$ at Gamestop for my CE!