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BIOWARE stop messing with our PvE experience!!!!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
BIOWARE stop messing with our PvE experience!!!!

KamikazeKommando's Avatar


KamikazeKommando
09.27.2012 , 12:16 PM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
That's good. PT's were OP in the DPS department. The fact that you could do maybe 30% (maybe more?) dps from ranged during specific mechanics where you couldn't be in melee on the boss isn't fair when people like marauders who don't have 30m range abilities literally had to sit there and do nothing, thus doing 0% damage during those points. I'm all for PT's doing their 1.3 damage if Marauders are the kings of DPS when they can stay connected to the boss the whole fight. Sadly, as you pointed out in your numerous examples, they can't and even if they could, PT's are still beating them. That makes 0 sense.
I agree with you, the other melee classes/specs do get hosed in those circumstances worse and I have a lot of sympathy for that. However, that's where gap closers come in (except for Smugs/Agents - but they still have a decent ability or two that can still be used >10m outside their default shot AFAIK) and arguably harder hitting melee abilities used to work it all out in the end.

But anyway all I'm mainly saying here is two things, agreeing with the OP, the Vanguard Assault class has:
(1) been nerfed in DPS for both PVP and PVE
(2) had their play style changed quite a bit, being more noticeable the more mobile the fight is (especially in PVP)

This is a counter all those who are trying to argue that the change is mostly meaningless in PVE, that we should do the same DPS in 1.4 as we did in 1.3, and that the range nerf doesn't change the way we play, as these statements couldn't be further from the truth.

xZarquon's Avatar


xZarquon
09.27.2012 , 12:22 PM | #62
I'm of mixed feelings about the changes. I do agree that pt's needed some sort of nerf in particular for pvp, but thought they were performing pretty much spot on for pve (yes, I do play one who is nearly min/maxed). The reason I say they were correct for pve is, although they do lots of damage (somewhere on par with a marauder and sniper although I'm not sure of the exact metrics) they have more difficult resource management as their primary method for managing resources is the on-proc free rail shot which can be victim to unlucky rng. If heat got too high early in a boss fight, you end up spamming rapid shot until it reaches lower levels if vent eat is on cd, dropping their dps. They lack the mobility, party buffs, and defensive cool downs of a marauder.

Personally, I thought simply lowering the range on TD/AP (and keeping the shared cd) would have been sufficient for fixing pt/vanguards. This would limit the ranged opening burst, but still provide the ranged opener to proc rail shot, the only other mobile ranged skill apart from rapid shot. While removing the shared cool down with electro dart does help alleviate some of the issues the changes present, the playstyle did feel clunkier when I played today. Even doing end of torvix today, the elite enemies (forget what they're called) we're constantly knocking me back out of 10m range, causing dps loss. Bosses with large knockbacks like annihilation droid can nearly halt pt dps for extended periods. For pvp ranged and kiting classes like Sorc and sniper seem like a direct coubter to these classes with roots stuns and escapes.

For pve the changes are definitely workable and I doubt or dps will be substantially hurt, but for pvp I agree this may need to be looked at more.

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
09.27.2012 , 12:29 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Haggardbr View Post
I would like to know that too...

But one thing I know is... as a trooper, if a marauder jump on me (even with gear that's worst than mine) with 3 or 4 hits i'll go down, because they have lots of defensive things and the leap as a gap closer.

Ok we have the harpoon, but that's one in around 45 sec ~ 1 min and it can jeopardize the attack that a fellow force user may be doing against another melee enemy because you wouldn't be getting close to the enemy (you >>> to >>> enemy) but instead you would be "taking" it away from your ally and then finishing his strike to the enemy.

To soften this problem with gap, I do agree that if those abilities keep nerfed in range we need Storm (Jet Charge) to close the gap.
I'm not as concerned about the PvP aspect. In 3 or 4 hits you will definitely not go down with equally geared toons, trust me, I know. It takes more than that for any 1v1. However, in the PvP aspect in a 1v1 PT's make up for their lack of defensive cd's by walking around in Heavy Armor and having insane burst damage.

But my concern is more to do with PvE, and the fact that PT's have the highest dps when staying connected to a boss and then having a decent % of damage at range isn't fair at all. In fact, it's still not fair, tbh.

At Melee: PT DPS > Marauder DPS
At Ranged: PT DPS > Marauder DPS
At AoE: PT DPS > Marauder DPS

Number of Roles each class can fill in an operation: PT (2) > Marauder (1)

Lolwhat?

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
09.27.2012 , 12:33 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by KamikazeKommando View Post
I agree with you, the other melee classes/specs do get hosed in those circumstances worse and I have a lot of sympathy for that. However, that's where gap closers come in (except for Smugs/Agents - but they still have a decent ability or two that can still be used >10m outside their default shot AFAIK) and arguably harder hitting melee abilities used to work it all out in the end.
I agree that gap closers are great for those periods where you get disconnected and then have to reconnect with a boss. But a significant more about of dps loss occurs not during the time you're running back to a boss, it's happening when you're stuck at ranged for whatever reason (i.e. EC Tanks underneath the shields or stuck in the colored circle during Operator IX) and Marauders do 0 DPS to whatever a PT's dps is at 15+ meters.

That's what irks me.

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
09.27.2012 , 01:13 PM | #65
The point of the nerf was to reduce Pyro/Assault range and DPS. Before this nerf they were arguably the best DPS to have. In PVP they were unbalanced due to their range. You couldnt do max dps at range but you could definitely bring the pain, and that had to go.

Also the pyro tree made AP totally worthless in PVE prenerf. Now theyre on a closer balance.

JediNg's Avatar


JediNg
09.27.2012 , 03:56 PM | #66
I'm onboard with you. I havent' read through whole thread so I may have disagreements about some nuances or abilties. But I'm on board with the idea that they need to STOP MESSING WITH OUR PVE EXPERIENCE >:|
Ritha
The Harbinger
Formerly from Ahazi, Dec Oct 2003 - Nov 2005

NumberZeroX's Avatar


NumberZeroX
09.27.2012 , 04:50 PM | #67
I agree that they are pushing everything to far. I like the idea that you keep PVE and PVP seperate.

Haggardbr's Avatar


Haggardbr
09.27.2012 , 04:53 PM | #68
You guys wanna know somthing interesting?

They only nerfed the range for Incendiary round and assault plastique for vanguards... I just checked my commando here and they still have the 30 meters range.

If only commandos didn't use (or were stronger) with assault cannons...
Sarah'kerrígan Jhom Kérrigan Jhota
Suarel

KamikazeKommando's Avatar


KamikazeKommando
09.27.2012 , 08:22 PM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Haggardbr View Post
You guys wanna know somthing interesting?

They only nerfed the range for Incendiary round and assault plastique for vanguards... I just checked my commando here and they still have the 30 meters range.

If only commandos didn't use (or were stronger) with assault cannons...
Yup, they didn't touch assault commandos, just vanguards. It is interesting that the same abilities have different ranges for the two ACs. I used to run an assault commando in PVE/PVP for quite a while then switched to vanguard due to the better synergies with the assault tree. However, since we're effecitvely now forced to always be within the 10m range, I'm going to have to take a serious look at the tactics tree, as much as I don't want to. The increased movement speed and pseudo-gap closer with the 30% boost for 8secs makes it perhaps worthy of a good look. Granted my simulations show a DPS loss with the switch, the utilities might actually make it effectively better in the new 1.4 world.

Vacarius's Avatar


Vacarius
09.27.2012 , 08:47 PM | #70
Bioware, pleae stop nerfing an overpowered class!

To add a contructive comment, powertechs will probably get a gap closer to alleviate your pain soon enough as the devs have said they envisage powertechs as a melee class now. This will probably involve a nerf to the burst of powertechs due to their increased mobilkity. The powertechs in my guild aren't that worried about it as their dps is so high they don't need to bother with ranged attacks. If your dps is crucial for transition phases (if a few powertech ranged attacks stand between success and a wipe your dps members need more work), get a sorc to pull you to the boss.
Seikier - Operative Healer
Officer of Nightmare Council