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BIOWARE stop messing with our PvE experience!!!!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
BIOWARE stop messing with our PvE experience!!!!

Haggardbr's Avatar


Haggardbr
09.27.2012 , 10:11 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by iamthehoyden View Post
I'd really love to know why this change was necessary. A developer explanation on that would be appreciated. If it was for pvp alone, that's bs.
I'd like that too...

It's like they said "We're going to change them because we want, that's how it's going to be now and there's nothing you can do about it!"

In other words, it seems like our opinion about the game is worth **** to them.


Quote: Originally Posted by ProsaicProse View Post
Wait, what "gap closer" does Operative get again...?
I guess that's what stealth is there for with another advantage... we don't see they coming!
Sarah'kerrígan Jhom Kérrigan Jhota
Suarel

TheRampage's Avatar


TheRampage
09.27.2012 , 10:14 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
Umm, that's precisely what happened: they changed every hard stun's range to 10m (those that previously had a 30m range, of course; Dirty Kick is still a melee stun).
Ah, didn't notice that tbh, and I still think that isn't good. I miss those 20m in pve. I miss them a lot. To many changes, and reality is that this game has one of better PVP class balance. Every single class is useable in PVP.

ProsaicProse's Avatar


ProsaicProse
09.27.2012 , 10:18 AM | #43
Change is hard, yea. People don't like change. I suppose players weren't playing the spec/AC the way Bioware intended.

I was personally surprised on my powertech that it got so many good long range abilities when I selected the AC, since I was under the impression it was supposed to be a melee range-get peoples faces-type of class. Since none of the other melee range classes have nearly as many long range abilities that DAMAGE things like powertechs do, it was probably a good change.

Haggardbr's Avatar


Haggardbr
09.27.2012 , 10:19 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by KamikazeKommando View Post
To be fair, it is really 3 abilities that got nerfed in range. You can throw [High Impact Bolt] aka [Rail Shot] in as well. Since it requires the burn (usually applied from the now nerfed IR), we can't use that until we're in the sub 10m range now too. We're pretty much stuck doing our basic [Hammer Shot] aka [Rapid Shot] until we're in 10m range. Previously we had several GCDs of 30m abilities to use while we closed the gap to enable the rest of our rotation.

I'm really disappointed by this change, not because I think it nerfs my damage much, but mainly because it really changes the play style quite dramatically and I don't like how it feels now. It is quite different, there's no doubt about it if you play the class. I really loved the pre 1.4 Vanguard Assault class play style, and now I am quite a sad panda how they changed it to this degree.

For those claiming we still have ranged DPS abilities, you need to walk in our shoes for a moment. Explosive Round (lol) is worthless, standing still for 3s to use Full Auto isn't going to do much for our DPS and then while it's on CD we're still SOL and maybe lost ground, Sticky Grenade is quite weak compared to our 31pt ability so we don't want to use the CD over AP. Ok, Mortar Volley, sure, once a minute. That's it, there's all the ranged abilties we have. Fact is: Vanguard Assault class have 6 abilities on their rotation, 5 of them now can't be used until we're in the 10m range, leaving just 1 (our default shot), from the previous 4 pre 1.4... that's kind of a big change in play style if you ask me.

FWIW, I both PVE and PVP equally *A LOT* and while admittedly this certainly affects PVP much more, it has a very real impact on raiding too. It's not just a learning curve thing, I simply won't be able to perform as well as I did previously, that's just a solid fact now due to the first paragraph.
THANK YOU!

Finally someone that knows what he's saying... that's the point i'm trying to reach.

While these changes will affect PvP it will present a HUGE and drastic change into PvE as well just as you perfectly described above, but people are just too stubborn to see that and say that this is all QQ'ing...

I'm also REALLY upset with these changes because I also loved the old play style, I used it for a long time, I was used to how it worked and now everything got screwed up.
Sarah'kerrígan Jhom Kérrigan Jhota
Suarel

miglor's Avatar


miglor
09.27.2012 , 10:32 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
I used to think so... but the only explanation for the crazy buffs to Focus/Rage tree of Knights/Warriors is that Bioware wanted to improve the spec's performance in PvE. In PvP it was a monster even before 1.4.
I mean how often do you hear PVE raiders whine on forums like "OMG BW!!! As a raid-leader, I feel that our dps PT is waaaay too OP. I DEMAND YOU NERF HIM TO THE GROUND OR I'M UNSUBBING!!".

Siorac's Avatar


Siorac
09.27.2012 , 10:32 AM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by TheRampage View Post
Ah, didn't notice that tbh, and I still think that isn't good. I miss those 20m in pve. I miss them a lot. To many changes, and reality is that this game has one of better PVP class balance. Every single class is useable in PVP.
Every class is equal but some are far more equal than others. I do have an Assault Vanguard at 50. It's so much easier to play and to play effectively than my Vigilance Guardian that it's not even funny. It does better damage with worse gear. And actually, pre-1.4, I suggested a few times on the forums that Vanguards' range should be reduced: it's not supposed to be a ranged class yet with Assault Plastique, Incendiary Round and High Impact Bolt you could put out 8-10k damage from 30 meters in 3 global cooldowns. That's comparable to what Snipers/Gunslingers can do.

I don't really get the PvE complaints: for an optimal rotation, you had to be in 10 meter range anyway, preferably 4 - Stockstrike and Ion Pulse aren't "optional", they are crucial for PvE. Yeah, it's no longer optimal to start a fight from 30 meters away but I can't really think of big boss fights where it's an actual, real issue. It's just an inconvenience until you get used to it.

kevlarto's Avatar


kevlarto
09.27.2012 , 11:05 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Redat View Post
PT's have been at the rough end of BW's wisdom for ages now, I shelved my lvl 50 PT, using it for storage now. I would really like to know where they get their info from, it obviously isnt the players.
They get their info from metrics, and metrics leaves out the whole human value.. like the fun factor, this whole game is built around metrics and metrics failed them in a big way.. /sigh
Do not dwell in the past, do not not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment.

Expectations lead to suffering

malangus's Avatar


malangus
09.27.2012 , 11:20 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Xena_Shepard View Post
Oh no, you have to be in melee range to be an effective DPS now.

How ever do the marauders/juggernauts/operatives cope?
One of the discussions since patch 1.1 was that Operatives DPS was low compared to other classes. I think the problem never was the DPS, but how fast they can reach the target. BH/Troop, Inq/Sage, Warriors/Knight, Gunslinger/Sniper all have either long range or fast travel mechanism. But Ops and Scoundrel do not have any fast way of getting to target, and most range moves do suck since they are melee classes. They can take up to 3-4 secs to get to a boss (after hiding from EV droid missiles for example), so their DPS output is seriously affected.

TO BIOWARE DEVS: Scondrel/Ops NEED a teleport ASAP. 1 min cooldown to prevent spamming on PVP should be ok.

An idea given here was a nice one, providing a immunity for a couple of secs (2-4) would have been a better option, or limiting the range ONLY on warzones, but keeping normal (pre 1.4) range on world PvE, Flashpoints, and Ops.

KamikazeKommando's Avatar


KamikazeKommando
09.27.2012 , 11:21 AM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
I don't really get the PvE complaints: for an optimal rotation, you had to be in 10 meter range anyway, preferably 4 - Stockstrike and Ion Pulse aren't "optional", they are crucial for PvE. Yeah, it's no longer optimal to start a fight from 30 meters away but I can't really think of big boss fights where it's an actual, real issue. It's just an inconvenience until you get used to it.
I mentioned earlier that it's much more of an issue for PVP than PVE, but there's still a real impact in PVE too, there's no question about it. Honestly, it's just a fact that we're now losing DPS on fights with the range nerf. Ok sure, if we're on a fight where we're just tanking/spanking and not moving around or switching targets (and there are some like that, sure) the change has little to no impact, but once you start throwing some mechanics around you can start to see where we're going to lose DPS from before. Just some quick examples for the more recent raid bosses:

Vorath(EC) - effectively hitting the robot adds on the minefield or turrets at the end is now harder and more annoying.

Kephess(EC) - when running to Baridium Bombers, Pulsar Droids, etc., that 30-10m dead spot is going to reduce our DPS as we run to/between them as is closing the gap after his jump.

Withering Horror(TFB) - that 30-10m dead spot is hurting your dps as you switch to the jealous mate, the adds, or to the boss after he burrows to a new place.

Ciphas, Heirad, and Kel’sara(TFB) - if you've got the doom stack from Ciphas or running away with the tether from Kel'sara, you're moving into the dead spots and lost DPS.

Operator IX(TFB) - moving between cores means 40m less overall effective distance as you're going from side to side in the room.

Kephess(TFB) - avoiding the red/blue circles can put you in the over 10m dead spot easily, as is when you run to pillars for either the laser or nanite phases. I noticed this more than anything else last night in particular.

Terror From Beyond(TFB) - burning down the adds in P1 or the mobs on the platforms in P2 is harder as you work to get them into range.

In all these quick examples, you were doing more DPS in 1.3 than you are now in 1.4. There's not much you can do to regain that lost DPS either, it's just a fact. Is it a lot of DPS lost? Sometimes hardly anything, other times it is much more noticeable. The other melee classes/specs hardly got hit this way, it's Vanguard Assault specifically that got changed in a pretty substantial way.

TL;DR: With 1.4 the Vanguard Assault play style has been dramatically changed and our DPS in both PVE and PVP has been reduced.

malangus's Avatar


malangus
09.27.2012 , 11:26 AM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
I don't really get the PvE complaints: for an optimal rotation, you had to be in 10 meter range anyway, preferably 4 - Stockstrike and Ion Pulse aren't "optional", they are crucial for PvE. Yeah, it's no longer optimal to start a fight from 30 meters away but I can't really think of big boss fights where it's an actual, real issue. It's just an inconvenience until you get used to it.
Haven't leveled a Vanguard past 30, but if I remember correctly, yes they were most effective in the 10 meter range (at least the build I had). Some moves are not available if you are farther than that. Remember how people came straight to me thinking I was a mere "Commando" and got the bad surprise that I owned them in close.