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Kun vs Vader vs Bane vs Revan.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kun vs Vader vs Bane vs Revan.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
09.26.2012 , 12:49 PM | #91
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthAeonis View Post
anakin beat dooku not vader. and he was enraged as well. and revan's battle log is pretty decent as well. if it was strictly lightsaber duel then idk. i think it can go either way. but once u add the force revan demolishes
Anakin during Revenge was weaker than when he was in the suit. He lost the potential to become 200% of Sidious, but he became much stronger than pre-suit.

Vader is no slouch with the Force. He's one of the most powerful ever. The only people that have a good chance of beating him are:

Mace Windu
Darth Caedus
Luke Skywalker
Kyle Katarn
(maybe) Exar Kun
Darth Sidious
Yoda

There are a few more, but they come from the NJO period.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
09.26.2012 , 12:53 PM | #92
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthAeonis View Post
its been said that he mastered both on several occasions and only he as far as i kno can call upon both sides simultaneously
OK now you are referencing the moment in the Revan novel. That moment has incredible similarities to Oneness with the Force. A brief moment where you obtain clarity within the Force. I have made several posts and a few threads as to how using both sides is impossible. I do not plan on reiterating myself.

Again you say 'its been said'. Unless it is stated in a canon source, it is not true. He was proficient with both sides of the Force. But he never used both of them at one time. Jedi Revan used Light Side. Darth Revan used Dark Side. Reborn Revan used Light Side, but fell back onto the Dark Side whenever he was stressed. He never mastered both sides. How many times must I say it? Luke and Sidious are the only people to ever master one side of the Force.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
09.26.2012 , 01:03 PM | #93
Kreia is the opposite of reputable. Even when she didn't actually lie she'd often say something nuts.

That said, I don't really have a problem with her saying "Revan was power." But all that really means is that Revan was powerful. Which we already know. That doesn't mean he was the most powerful Sith out of the 4 of them.

Jolee Bindo doesn't exactly compare Revan's power favorably to Exar Kun or other veterans of the Great Sith War, and he was there.

The Rodian in the Yavin station who knew Kun even calls Revan a wannabe Sith Lord if he tries to intimidate him.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
09.26.2012 , 01:29 PM | #94
Quote: Originally Posted by OldVengeance View Post
Kreia is the opposite of reputable. Even when she didn't actually lie she'd often say something nuts.

That said, I don't really have a problem with her saying "Revan was power." But all that really means is that Revan was powerful. Which we already know. That doesn't mean he was the most powerful Sith out of the 4 of them.
Kriea is like Sidious but in a different time period. She wasn't all that powerful (contrary to Sidious), but she could manipulate many people to do her bidding. But the thing is, she always lies. She told Sion that he would be her right hand (since she lost it to him ), but that was a lie. She always wanted the Exile.

That quote really shows how badly she lies. I look at it as a way to push the Exile to get stronger. "Revan was my greatest student. You suck compared to him!" It was really meant to make the Exile stronger so Kreia's plans could come to fruition.

But it doesn't change the fact that these three other Sith Lords are more powerful than he is.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

SuperGrunt's Avatar


SuperGrunt
09.26.2012 , 01:33 PM | #95
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
I watched this a few days ago and find myself agreeing with it, others do not though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l84bdr5CPlk
That video while interesting lacked on a few things.

1. Vader was more adaptable due to his heavy training regimen.
2. Vader had a stronger connection to the Force than anyone in the History of the Expanded Star Wars Universe, with the possible exception of his children, which negated the disadvantage imposed by his cybernetics. That was the only reason why Palpatine never replaced him, and didn't even try to until Luke Skywalker came to light.
3. No one knew that Vader was weak against Force Lightning or else anyone would have been able to beat him.

The only person in that foursome that I would even give any chance against Vader would be Bane.
1. While training in the ways of the Dark Side Bane was able to so over power his fellow disciples that he easily killed a fellow student while training by breaking through his opponent's Force shield with out even realizing it.
2. Bane was so powerful that his disciple, Zannah, was afraid to Challenge him, even when she knew that he was expecting it, and was also weakening due to age, to the point that he was worried that she would dilute the Sith by simply letting him die due to old age.
3. At the end of the third Bane book he is in a contest of wills with Zannah, and after winning , we don't really know which one did, which ever one actually won claimed to be Zannah. If that where true the Force Technique Bane used should have been lost, but we have seen it used elsewhere in the Expanded Universe. The Emperor used it to transfer himself to cloned bodies, and the Coboath clone also used, or attempted to use it. Unless Zannah or her apprentice was able to learn the technique enough to learn it, due to the fact that Bane destroyed the Holocron he learned it from, Palpatine should not have been able to use that technique to move from one body to the next.
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GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
09.26.2012 , 07:51 PM | #96
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Granted, but I don't like that fight because Vader could so easily kill Fett. If a blind man could do it, why not Vader?
Han Solo defeated Fett on accident while Fett was fighting Luke Skywalker. Boba Fett came close to getting slaughtered by Vader but in the end, came out on top.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Reborn Sidious did that. Just visit Sidious' powers on the Wookieepedia and you'll see what he can and cannot do.
Look at the price it exacted though, his clone bodies rapidly deteriorated due to those displays of power, I don't think the clone emperor was playing with a full deck; cause he was constantly causing his bodies to deteriorate. The original Palpatine knew that those kind of displays exacted a serious toll on his body.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I know. The game had some good action in it, but the story was a bit bland.
The game only had half of the story.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I give Revan credit where credit is due. So yes, he pulled off impressive feats. But Vader could beat Revan in a one v one. They're both some of the greatest of their time, but Vader has done more impressive things in duels. He defeated Cin Drallig, arguably one of the Jedi Order's greatest Battlemasters. He defeated him while simultaneously fighting several other Jedi. He also almost defeated Obi-Wan Kenobi, the master of Soresu.
Maybe, maybe not, by all accounts Revan shouldn't have been able to beat Malak, but it didn't stop him. While Kreia often lied in KotOR II, I don't think she lied about Revan's power. If you analyze Malak's fighting style, it stands to reason that he used Djem So, or something extremely similar to Djem So. We also have to remember that without his entire memory in that final battle with Malak, he was even more powerful than when he was the Sith Lord.

While I think Revan is often overrated, I think he is powerful enough to be able to take on Darth Vader and not only survive, but actually win. I don't think there is as big of a mismatch in power as people think.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
The NJO used the Wall of Light power that destroyed Kun's spirit. It took the full power of the NJO as well as Luke Skywalker to defeat him. The same Luke Skywalker that defeated Darth Sidious in a Lightsaber duel. But I do agree that Kun wasn't the smartest of Sith. There is a good chance of him getting beat early.
Luke didn't provide much of an assist, it was mostly his trainees, and while they would become the New Jedi Order, they were still only half-trained when they took down Exar Kun.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
09.26.2012 , 08:29 PM | #97
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Han Solo defeated Fett on accident while Fett was fighting Luke Skywalker. Boba Fett came close to getting slaughtered by Vader but in the end, came out on top.



Look at the price it exacted though, his clone bodies rapidly deteriorated due to those displays of power, I don't think the clone emperor was playing with a full deck; cause he was constantly causing his bodies to deteriorate. The original Palpatine knew that those kind of displays exacted a serious toll on his body.



The game only had half of the story.



Maybe, maybe not, by all accounts Revan shouldn't have been able to beat Malak, but it didn't stop him. While Kreia often lied in KotOR II, I don't think she lied about Revan's power. If you analyze Malak's fighting style, it stands to reason that he used Djem So, or something extremely similar to Djem So. We also have to remember that without his entire memory in that final battle with Malak, he was even more powerful than when he was the Sith Lord.

While I think Revan is often overrated, I think he is powerful enough to be able to take on Darth Vader and not only survive, but actually win. I don't think there is as big of a mismatch in power as people think.



Luke didn't provide much of an assist, it was mostly his trainees, and while they would become the New Jedi Order, they were still only half-trained when they took down Exar Kun.
I'll give you that one.

His original body would have been able to handle it because it is already used to the power inside it. The clone bodies deteriorated because they had no time to adjust to the power within them.

Actually Revan could have beaten Malak easily. Malak was never stronger than Revan. Malak even said so himself. This is a mis-match for one reason. The Rule of Two. Vader is one thousand years ahead of Revan. And since the plan worked, Vader is obviously more powerful than Revan.

Still, the damage Kun could do as a spirit was very good. Not to many Sith can live as a spirit for millenia and then attack the Jedi Order.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
09.26.2012 , 10:03 PM | #98
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
His original body would have been able to handle it because it is already used to the power inside it. The clone bodies deteriorated because they had no time to adjust to the power within them.
Episode III indicates otherwise, it appears intense usage of Force Lightning for instance causes the wielder to damage himself/herself. If you'll also notice with Darkside corruption, you begin to see deterioration of one's face in Old Republic as well as KotOR. The original body holds up better, I'll grant you that, but I suspect the Emperor (pre-clone) didn't use his powers to that level because there was a serious price that he would pay for doing so, a price that would seriously debilitate him, perhaps fatally.

Clones that used the lightside of the Force appear to not suffer the same ill effects, it seems as though one damages one-self with intense usage of the darkside.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Actually Revan could have beaten Malak easily. Malak was never stronger than Revan. Malak even said so himself. This is a mis-match for one reason. The Rule of Two. Vader is one thousand years ahead of Revan. And since the plan worked, Vader is obviously more powerful than Revan.
A battle isn't solely measured in strength, while Vader may have more raw power, counting Revan out is a serious mistake.

If you've ever played Star Wars CCG by Decipher there is an interesting comparison you can make, okay Vader would be on average a power 6 card (he has an ability 6 since he is a Dark Jedi), Revan (card doesn't exist but I think we could get a rough estimate), would probably be a power 5 ability 7 (he was a Sith Lord (the master not the apprentice), bare minimum he's ability 6). While this would give vader a +1 power advantage (Vader is also immune to attrition < 5), Revan's power isn't that far behind Vader's (since I'm guessing Revan would have ability 7 (like Palpatine or any Jedi Master, there is a good chance he's immune to attrition); the deciding factor would be battle destiny. If you have a total ability of 4 or more you draw 1 battle destiny, both sides thus draw a battle destiny.

Now with battle destiny being thrown into this Revan has a few ways to win.
1. Draws a battle destiny that is +2 over Vader's draw (so Vader's side loses 1 life force, if Revan draws +1 over Vader's then it's a draw, but Revan may still win.
2. Vader draws a higher battle destiny or equal battle destiny, but Revan drew a battle destiny of 5, Revan's side loses some life force, but Vader has to be placed in the lost pile because there is an attrition of 5. Revan on the other hand is immune to attrition so doesn't have to be forfitted.

Didn't bother throwing lightsabers into it because they'd probably both kill each other with the sabers rendering it a moot point.

To summarize what I'm trying to say, Power isn't everything, there is also other factors that must be considered.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Still, the damage Kun could do as a spirit was very good. Not to many Sith can live as a spirit for millenia and then attack the Jedi Order.
He might actually have been more powerful as a ghost than when he was alive, remember he stole the life force of hundreds if not thousands in order to become that ghost. So considering we're dealing with a flesh and blood Exar Kun, I don't think Skywalker would lose to him. Also he beat Luke Skywalker (whom was only a fledgling Jedi Master at the time), using the force potential of Kyp Durron to augment his attacks, there is a significant chance that without Kyp Durron's potential being used, Skywalker might have been able to take out that force ghost all on his own.

BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
09.26.2012 , 10:45 PM | #99
A detoriating body isn't really a fall-back in a fight.

We saw how fast Palps moved in Ep. 3 or Yoda in Ep. 2 and Ep. 3.

Age means nothing in a force-wielders fight.
Hapan: "This creature has information that could lead us to a woman who has been kidnapped. We will get that information."
Luke: "This woman is a citizen of the New Republic, and if you do not take your hands off her, I will take your hands off you."

DarthAeonis's Avatar


DarthAeonis
09.26.2012 , 11:08 PM | #100
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Anakin during Revenge was weaker than when he was in the suit. He lost the potential to become 200% of Sidious, but he became much stronger than pre-suit.

Vader is no slouch with the Force. He's one of the most powerful ever. The only people that have a good chance of beating him are:

Mace Windu
Darth Caedus
Luke Skywalker
Kyle Katarn
(maybe) Exar Kun
Darth Sidious
Yoda

There are a few more, but they come from the NJO period.
at this point im just starting to think ur just incredibly biased to side with anyone in NJO. to call vader one of the most powerful EVER? now surely not even u can believe that. revan's force power imo is on a whole nother scale than vader. idk why u think vader is god statistically but a fan is afan i suppose. i dont believe revan is invincible but is def more than capable to fight ANY opponent and possibly win. u make it seem he has no chance at all. vader is iconic not the strongest by far. his only attribute he could rely on in a fight with revan is his physical strength and thats only cuz he's half robot lol. revan has physical strength, the most force knowledge of anyone ( btw revan used force lightning as jedi under no stress or weakness at all) is acrobatic, heightened foresight, force skill, a mind game master, expert tactitian, etc. the moment he encountered vader he would have a plan to defeat him. revan is legendary for a reason. revan>vader (i still love vader tho)
"Evil is an illusion, there is only victory."