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Kun vs Vader vs Bane vs Revan.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kun vs Vader vs Bane vs Revan.

ReiKai's Avatar


ReiKai
09.25.2012 , 02:35 PM | #51
Except until KotoR, Revan didn't technically exist in the lore and it was never stated that Vader had learned of or studied these other individuals. In fact, just looking in SWTOR, just three centuries after Revan departed the Republic, most forgot about him entirely. Also, knowing a bit of history does not make one an expect on how those figures fought or how powerful they are. Being "newer" doesn't make Vader better than them. Given the fact that Exar Kun, Bane and Revan have all learned more deeply of the Force and techniques than Vader has ever demonstrated, really places the cyborg Sith Lord as the odd duck out.
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AidanStrike's Avatar


AidanStrike
09.25.2012 , 03:42 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by ReiKai View Post
Except until KotoR, Revan didn't technically exist in the lore and it was never stated that Vader had learned of or studied these other individuals. In fact, just looking in SWTOR, just three centuries after Revan departed the Republic, most forgot about him entirely. Also, knowing a bit of history does not make one an expect on how those figures fought or how powerful they are. Being "newer" doesn't make Vader better than them. Given the fact that Exar Kun, Bane and Revan have all learned more deeply of the Force and techniques than Vader has ever demonstrated, really places the cyborg Sith Lord as the odd duck out.
Doens't make any sense. Vader is said to be the most powerful Sith Lord of all time, who say that? The most powerful being in the Galaxy, Darth Sidious. How can u just say that Exar Kun, Bane or even Revan learned more than the apprentice of the most powerful being in the galaxy?
That's the problem with some EU and with some fans of any character, I like Revan, but you're just being a little far here. Bane learned from a holocran of Darth Revan, but BEFORE that many soldiers talks about he, how can u say that Darth Sidious don't know nothing about him? Datacrons still existis, y'll know?

That being said, Vader hands down win this fight for everything he was and he is in the lore. He was said to be the Chosen One, he was bring him by the Force, he have been the One to make the Great Purge of all time, he was the one to adapt in a hard suit and, well.. you know? He was the first Sith to appear in a screen. XD

Vader > the 3 of them (and I say that again, I really like Revan, he is the one that makes me play this game, but I know something or two about the lore here).

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
09.25.2012 , 03:46 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by AidanStrike View Post
Doens't make any sense. Vader is said to be the most powerful Sith Lord of all time, who say that? The most powerful being in the Galaxy, Darth Sidious. How can u just say that Exar Kun, Bane or even Revan learned more than the apprentice of the most powerful being in the galaxy?
That's the problem with some EU and with some fans of any character, I like Revan, but you're just being a little far here. Bane learned from a holocran of Darth Revan, but BEFORE that many soldiers talks about he, how can u say that Darth Sidious don't know nothing about him? Datacrons still existis, y'll know?

That being said, Vader hands down win this fight for everything he was and he is in the lore. He was said to be the Chosen One, he was bring him by the Force, he have been the One to make the Great Purge of all time, he was the one to adapt in a hard suit and, well.. you know? He was the first Sith to appear in a screen. XD

Vader > the 3 of them (and I say that again, I really like Revan, he is the one that makes me play this game, but I know something or two about the lore here).
Vader is one of the most powerful sith, not THE that belongs to Sidious. It actually might be Vader > the 3 of them, but lore says otherwise being that Kun was still a force to be reckoned with by the time of Luke's jedi order. Granted he wasn't in a physical body but even so.
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―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

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AidanStrike's Avatar


AidanStrike
09.25.2012 , 03:48 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Vader is one of the most powerful sith, not THE that belongs to Sidious. It actually might be Vader > the 3 of them, but lore says otherwise being that Kun was still a force to be reckoned with by the time of Luke's jedi order. Granted he wasn't in a physical body but even so.
When I say the Most Powerful Being > The most Powerful Sith. Sorry, but I can't bring myself to not say that Sidious was the most Poweful Being in the galaxy at that point.

ReiKai's Avatar


ReiKai
09.25.2012 , 05:14 PM | #55
Except that Vader wasn't the "most powerful being" at any point. He was "The Chosen One". He had a purpose, he dropped Sid down an energy shaft. Purpose fulfilled, he was no longer needed, thus no longer important in the grand scheme of things. Luke takes over.

In terms of Force Powers and Knowledge, everyone else in that room stands high above Vader. The only thing he might claim over them is raw power. But when his main weakness is lightning, and there's three guys in the room all capable of tearing into him with it, well...Vader's insulation isn't gonna mean jack. It couldn't even stop a jolt from Starkiller, even after Vader improved his defenses against it.

While a number of the Writers may consider these men equal, that is generally because none of them seek to incur George Lucas' wrath. Regardless, when four people in the room are made to fight each other, you take out the weakest one first, and then let two of the others exchange blows and wait for an opportunity to strike when it's most advantageous. All four of them are capable tacticians, but among them Vader is physically the slowest. And while Vader may have adapted to his Cybernetics, it still makes him the most vulnerable amongst the group. It doesn't matter who engages Vader first, or if two of them decide to go at him. It's more than likely they will all seek to eliminate the weaker man first so he doesn't try and shank them while they're busy fighting their supposed equals.

If either Exar Kun or Bane attacks Revan with Force Lightning or another Force Energy based ability, they will wish they hadn't. Revan has already shown himself capable of absorbing that power, channeling and amplifying it into a stronger attack. To which brings the possibility of Kun or Bane striking at Revan with their Force Powers, only for Revan to take that power, add it to his own, and utilize it to quickly take Vader out of the picture. This would of course tell Exar Kun and Bane that using their Force Powers against Revan would not go in their favor. Not unless they could get passed his absorption abilities. That leaves saber combat, and all three of them are prolific fighters.

Bane's Essence Transfer would be a last ditch effort and one he'd only attempt if he was certain there was only himself and one other remaining as a third party could easily jump in and kill the one whose body he is seeking to transfer into, thus killing both Bane and his intended host. It is also unlikely to work on anyone here as each of them possesses great willpower and mental fortitude. So Essence Transfer may end up just killing Bane while temporarily weakening his intended target.

Exar Kun will primarily focus on saber combat and anyone who can get passed his defenses or set him into a trap could deliver a fatal blow. I would actually say that even Vader is capable of doing such, though it would be extremely difficult to strike at Exar Kun with the Force in any meaningful way while defending against a flurry of saber strikes. And, assuming Revan and Bane aren't similarly dueling, it'd leave Vader and Exar Kun both open to assault from a third party, which could potentially be fatal to both of them, leaving the remaining two free to battle for dominance.
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AidanStrike's Avatar


AidanStrike
09.25.2012 , 05:30 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by ReiKai View Post
Except that Vader wasn't the "most powerful being" at any point. He was "The Chosen One". He had a purpose, he dropped Sid down an energy shaft. Purpose fulfilled, he was no longer needed, thus no longer important in the grand scheme of things. Luke takes over.

In terms of Force Powers and Knowledge, everyone else in that room stands high above Vader. The only thing he might claim over them is raw power. But when his main weakness is lightning, and there's three guys in the room all capable of tearing into him with it, well...Vader's insulation isn't gonna mean jack. It couldn't even stop a jolt from Starkiller, even after Vader improved his defenses against it.

While a number of the Writers may consider these men equal, that is generally because none of them seek to incur George Lucas' wrath. Regardless, when four people in the room are made to fight each other, you take out the weakest one first, and then let two of the others exchange blows and wait for an opportunity to strike when it's most advantageous. All four of them are capable tacticians, but among them Vader is physically the slowest. And while Vader may have adapted to his Cybernetics, it still makes him the most vulnerable amongst the group. It doesn't matter who engages Vader first, or if two of them decide to go at him. It's more than likely they will all seek to eliminate the weaker man first so he doesn't try and shank them while they're busy fighting their supposed equals.

If either Exar Kun or Bane attacks Revan with Force Lightning or another Force Energy based ability, they will wish they hadn't. Revan has already shown himself capable of absorbing that power, channeling and amplifying it into a stronger attack. To which brings the possibility of Kun or Bane striking at Revan with their Force Powers, only for Revan to take that power, add it to his own, and utilize it to quickly take Vader out of the picture. This would of course tell Exar Kun and Bane that using their Force Powers against Revan would not go in their favor. Not unless they could get passed his absorption abilities. That leaves saber combat, and all three of them are prolific fighters.

Bane's Essence Transfer would be a last ditch effort and one he'd only attempt if he was certain there was only himself and one other remaining as a third party could easily jump in and kill the one whose body he is seeking to transfer into, thus killing both Bane and his intended host. It is also unlikely to work on anyone here as each of them possesses great willpower and mental fortitude. So Essence Transfer may end up just killing Bane while temporarily weakening his intended target.

Exar Kun will primarily focus on saber combat and anyone who can get passed his defenses or set him into a trap could deliver a fatal blow. I would actually say that even Vader is capable of doing such, though it would be extremely difficult to strike at Exar Kun with the Force in any meaningful way while defending against a flurry of saber strikes. And, assuming Revan and Bane aren't similarly dueling, it'd leave Vader and Exar Kun both open to assault from a third party, which could potentially be fatal to both of them, leaving the remaining two free to battle for dominance.
when do I say that Vader was the most powerful being? He was 80% of the Most powerful being, his Master, The Emperor, Darth Sidious.
I really don't believe what I am reading, my god... I really fell sorry for Revan because of most of him fanbase.
Okay dude, that was nice. I'll only say that again. Vader > all of them.

In times like this, sometimes, I understand when people says that "things" about Revan, all the rage comes down for nothing..

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
09.25.2012 , 06:00 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by ReiKai View Post
Except that Vader wasn't the "most powerful being" at any point. He was "The Chosen One". He had a purpose, he dropped Sid down an energy shaft. Purpose fulfilled, he was no longer needed, thus no longer important in the grand scheme of things. Luke takes over.

In terms of Force Powers and Knowledge, everyone else in that room stands high above Vader. The only thing he might claim over them is raw power. But when his main weakness is lightning, and there's three guys in the room all capable of tearing into him with it, well...Vader's insulation isn't gonna mean jack. It couldn't even stop a jolt from Starkiller, even after Vader improved his defenses against it.

While a number of the Writers may consider these men equal, that is generally because none of them seek to incur George Lucas' wrath. Regardless, when four people in the room are made to fight each other, you take out the weakest one first, and then let two of the others exchange blows and wait for an opportunity to strike when it's most advantageous. All four of them are capable tacticians, but among them Vader is physically the slowest. And while Vader may have adapted to his Cybernetics, it still makes him the most vulnerable amongst the group. It doesn't matter who engages Vader first, or if two of them decide to go at him. It's more than likely they will all seek to eliminate the weaker man first so he doesn't try and shank them while they're busy fighting their supposed equals.

If either Exar Kun or Bane attacks Revan with Force Lightning or another Force Energy based ability, they will wish they hadn't. Revan has already shown himself capable of absorbing that power, channeling and amplifying it into a stronger attack. To which brings the possibility of Kun or Bane striking at Revan with their Force Powers, only for Revan to take that power, add it to his own, and utilize it to quickly take Vader out of the picture. This would of course tell Exar Kun and Bane that using their Force Powers against Revan would not go in their favor. Not unless they could get passed his absorption abilities. That leaves saber combat, and all three of them are prolific fighters.

Bane's Essence Transfer would be a last ditch effort and one he'd only attempt if he was certain there was only himself and one other remaining as a third party could easily jump in and kill the one whose body he is seeking to transfer into, thus killing both Bane and his intended host. It is also unlikely to work on anyone here as each of them possesses great willpower and mental fortitude. So Essence Transfer may end up just killing Bane while temporarily weakening his intended target.

Exar Kun will primarily focus on saber combat and anyone who can get passed his defenses or set him into a trap could deliver a fatal blow. I would actually say that even Vader is capable of doing such, though it would be extremely difficult to strike at Exar Kun with the Force in any meaningful way while defending against a flurry of saber strikes. And, assuming Revan and Bane aren't similarly dueling, it'd leave Vader and Exar Kun both open to assault from a third party, which could potentially be fatal to both of them, leaving the remaining two free to battle for dominance.
And the Chosen One had the potential to be the greatest being ever to exist. Born from the Force itself, Anakin could have been even more powerful than Luke (though not by much). He ended up being 80% of Sidious' power. And Sidious is more powerful than any before him by leaps and bounds. This automatically makes Vader greater than these other combatants.

Vader is not weak to lightning. Not the actual lightning. It is the force behind the lightning that affects Vader. The lightning that Starkiller used against Vader was amplified by Kamino's lightning towers. And Vader simply fell to one knee. Had Vader been weak to lightning, he would have died. Sidious' lightning killed Vader because it is the most powerful lightning ever. This is the lightning that could tear apart fleets of ships. So the lightning of these guys doesn't really help them.

Yes, compared to these guys, Vader is slow. But his raw physical strength could overwhelm any opponent.

I highly doubt Revan could absorb one Kun's force blasts. Blasts that can destroy durasteel walls.

I'm sorry to say, but Revan doesn't have a chance going up against any of these guys. Exar Kun has better saber skills and Force power. Bane destroys Revan with his pure strength and Force power. Vader is the better duelist and has far more power at his command than Revan. Even his tactical skills won't help much here.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
09.25.2012 , 07:17 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
And the Chosen One had the potential to be the greatest being ever to exist. Born from the Force itself, Anakin could have been even more powerful than Luke (though not by much). He ended up being 80% of Sidious' power. And Sidious is more powerful than any before him by leaps and bounds. This automatically makes Vader greater than these other combatants.
Force Potential isn't everything, Boba Fett fought Darth Vader on multiple occasions even to a draw at times, and Fett wasn't force sensitive.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Vader is not weak to lightning. Not the actual lightning. It is the force behind the lightning that affects Vader. The lightning that Starkiller used against Vader was amplified by Kamino's lightning towers. And Vader simply fell to one knee. Had Vader been weak to lightning, he would have died. Sidious' lightning killed Vader because it is the most powerful lightning ever. This is the lightning that could tear apart fleets of ships. So the lightning of these guys doesn't really help them.
Seriously if Sidious' lighting was that powerful why did he need a Death Star? He could fire force lightning in a space suit if that were the case...

Fact of the matter is you're just looking at video game mechanics, Vader's insulation had been damaged allowing Starkiller to force lightning Vader into submission according to the Novel, generally the Novel trumps the videogame.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Yes, compared to these guys, Vader is slow. But his raw physical strength could overwhelm any opponent.
He'd probably be evenly matched in strength with Bane.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I highly doubt Revan could absorb one Kun's force blasts. Blasts that can destroy durasteel walls.
I don't think any of these guys are push overs, I know there are a lot of haters out there, but Revan accomplished some pretty impressive feats, he isn't exactly a slouch with a lightsaber nor is he a slouch when it comes to the force.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I'm sorry to say, but Revan doesn't have a chance going up against any of these guys. Exar Kun has better saber skills and Force power. Bane destroys Revan with his pure strength and Force power. Vader is the better duelist and has far more power at his command than Revan. Even his tactical skills won't help much here.
My analysis had nothing to do with raw potential whom is arguably the strongest, it boils down to simple logic. The first person to attack is most likely the first one to die, because he opens himself up to attack from the other two.

Vader was able to take on multiple Jedi at once because they had to avoid hitting each other, and Vader was able to use that, cause he could strike with impunity.

This fight is a four way slug fest, there aren't any allies, so in being the first to attack and/or first engaged means you're all tied up fighting with one person and the other two people can and will attack with impunity.

Revan is most likely to survive it because he's the most patient, the least likely to be the first one to attack, and probably wouldn't waste time with taunts either, so he's the least likely to be the one that is first attacked, and he's the least likely to be the first attacker.

Bane may know patience, but Exar Kun is bound to get on Bane's nerves. So the initial combatants are probably going to be Bane vs Kun. Bane's resistance to lightsabers means that only Revan or Exar Kun can take him down. The others will figure out Bane's resistance fairly quickly, Vader would probably go in to take down Exar Kun. Revan will probably force lighting Bane along with Vader for good measure.

ReiKai's Avatar


ReiKai
09.25.2012 , 08:00 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere
And the Chosen One had the potential to be the greatest being ever to exist. Born from the Force itself, Anakin could have been even more powerful than Luke (though not by much). He ended up being 80% of Sidious' power. And Sidious is more powerful than any before him by leaps and bounds. This automatically makes Vader greater than these other combatants.
Ah-hah-hah, ahhh-No. Anakin had the potential to be 2x stronger than Sidious. That's it. Becoming a Cyborg dropped him to 80% of Darth Sidious, which is an utterly meaningless statement. If they are trying to use Sid as a benchmark for Sith then that would mean others were as powerful if not moreso than him. This is, of course, not true because there is no powerscaling for Star Wars. Thus the "80% Sid" bit is completely meaningless and always has been. And it doesn't make him automatically better than everyone else as we've seen him lose to Starkiller several times and have problems fighting a clone of Darth Maul and Celeste Morne, who had been in hibernation for almost four millennium.

Quote:
The lightning that Starkiller used against Vader was amplified by Kamino's lightning towers.
As already said by GarfieldJL, that was Game Mechanics. Starkiller doesn't use the towers in the Novel. I know, I read the damn thing in less than week. When SK escaped Kamino, he had shocked Vader and blew out a wall to reach a landing pad. SK returned there a week later and faced Vader again, who'd improved the insulation in his suit, and still SK stunned him with Force Lightning that penetrated the insulation. This was before Juno had taken SK's fallen lightsaber and created a rent in Vader's armor that SK then shot his lightning into to cripple Vader.

Quote:
Had Vader been weak to lightning, he would have died.
No. Had Starkiller continued to rip into him with Force Lightning, Vader would've died. But since Vader is protected by Plot Continuity, he clearly couldn't be allowed to die. Otherwise, Starkiller would've murdered him, or Kota would've.

Quote:
Yes, compared to these guys, Vader is slow. But his raw physical strength could overwhelm any opponent.
Not especially, no. Anyone who knows how to use their speed effectively can take down those stronger than themselves. A shot to the throat, the joints and other vulnerable points on the body could put Vader on the ground regardless of the strength granted by his prosthetics.

Quote:
I highly doubt Revan could absorb one Kun's force blasts. Blasts that can destroy durasteel walls.
Starkiller blew out a durasteel wall with just TK. I don't see the difference. The Consular in SWTOR exploded a blast door with several telekinetic blasts. And in KoToR Revan had already been said to unleash storms of lightning that took out scores of "The One's" Rakatan Warriors. Despite Durasteel's claim of resilience and strength, in SW it has been shown to be far too easy to cut through and break.

Quote:
I'm sorry to say, but Revan doesn't have a chance going up against any of these guys. Exar Kun has better saber skills and Force power. Bane destroys Revan with his pure strength and Force power. Vader is the better duelist and has far more power at his command than Revan. Even his tactical skills won't help much here.
All I can get from this is "hate revan hate revan hate revan hate revan".

Revan has the highest chance of winning here. Exar Kun lost his war inside a few years. Revan won the Mando Wars, left, came back and started the Jedi Civil war and was winning, survived betrayal by Malak, regained his Force Powers a year later, and then beat every who's ever faced him as well as defeating Malak in the Star Forge while Malak was being amplified by the Star Forge and the dozen Jedi he'd captured and used to rejuvinate himself with. The only one who had ever actually defeated Revan was the Sith Emperor, Darth Vitiate, who may very well be one of the most powerful Dark Side users in the SWU.

Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Bane's resistance to lightsabers means that only Revan or Exar Kun can take him down.
That's not technically true. You could still cut his head off as that and his wrists were the only unprotected parts of his body. However that is assuming that this is Bane with the Orbalisk armor in play, and not Bane at his peak which is after losing it, when he acquired more Sith Knowledge and Force techniques. He may have lost his armor, but he learned to fight more efficiently because he'd become more vulnerable to attack. That forced him to pefect his defenses against the Force, melee combat and blasters.
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Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
09.25.2012 , 08:45 PM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Force Potential isn't everything, Boba Fett fought Darth Vader on multiple occasions even to a draw at times, and Fett wasn't force sensitive.



Seriously if Sidious' lighting was that powerful why did he need a Death Star? He could fire force lightning in a space suit if that were the case...

Fact of the matter is you're just looking at video game mechanics, Vader's insulation had been damaged allowing Starkiller to force lightning Vader into submission according to the Novel, generally the Novel trumps the videogame.



He'd probably be evenly matched in strength with Bane.



I don't think any of these guys are push overs, I know there are a lot of haters out there, but Revan accomplished some pretty impressive feats, he isn't exactly a slouch with a lightsaber nor is he a slouch when it comes to the force.



My analysis had nothing to do with raw potential whom is arguably the strongest, it boils down to simple logic. The first person to attack is most likely the first one to die, because he opens himself up to attack from the other two.

Vader was able to take on multiple Jedi at once because they had to avoid hitting each other, and Vader was able to use that, cause he could strike with impunity.

This fight is a four way slug fest, there aren't any allies, so in being the first to attack and/or first engaged means you're all tied up fighting with one person and the other two people can and will attack with impunity.

Revan is most likely to survive it because he's the most patient, the least likely to be the first one to attack, and probably wouldn't waste time with taunts either, so he's the least likely to be the one that is first attacked, and he's the least likely to be the first attacker.

Bane may know patience, but Exar Kun is bound to get on Bane's nerves. So the initial combatants are probably going to be Bane vs Kun. Bane's resistance to lightsabers means that only Revan or Exar Kun can take him down. The others will figure out Bane's resistance fairly quickly, Vader would probably go in to take down Exar Kun. Revan will probably force lighting Bane along with Vader for good measure.
You really think Boba Fett could fight Darth Vader to a draw? okay then. If Vader had actually wanted to kill Fett, he would have done so, easily.

I've asked myself that question many times, but I know the answer. The Death Star created fear. That was its main purpose- to put fear into those who would resist him. After the Empire fell and Sidious was reborn, he showed the full power of the Dark Side. He used his mastery of Force Lightning to create Force Storms in space.

never bothered to read the novel because I found the game to be a bit lackluster.

Most likely

But compared to Vader, Revan loses badly.

Patience can only get him so far. Once it comes down to him versus Vader or Kun, he will lose. Vader has killed some of the greatest of Jedi ever. And Kun almost destroyed the NJO post-humously. Revan could never do that.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus