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Tanking Relics for PVE


Songwhistle's Avatar


Songwhistle
09.21.2012 , 12:10 PM | #1
Hi guys,

This is for all newish tanks that keep saying that the only real choice for a tanking relic are the ones with a steady shield rate as opposed to an "on use" relic that increases shield and absorb rate by a lot but for a short time.

This is as far from the truth as you come. Yes it is good on majority of the fights however there are several fights in the game that will give you better survival with other relics. So for those select few fights you might want to consider using other relics with on use effects. The fights where you might want to consider using a on-use relic are the high spike damage fights where you will be taking high damage for a limited time. This puts less strain on healers during spike damage phases and increases your overall chance of survival. Math suggests you take less damage througout a fight with the WH relic however getting killed as a tank is most often occurring when spike damage hits and your healers can't keep up. This is only in the case that people otherwise do as they should be doing. Assuming such you can prevent tank deaths in a lot of incidents by taking that spike away.

For those tanks attempting to do jarg and sorno on 16 man nightmare you are helped a lot by using on use relics due to the fact that after a certain point damage keeps increasing and you have to do tank rotations. Relics with on use will further increase the time you can tank before you end up getting one-shot.

Another example of a spike fight is Foreman Crusher - although not as difficult as jarg and sorno on 16 man using relics with on use in conjunction with one defensive cooldown can totally negate the spike damage from his frenzy. This also means you never have to switch between tanks.

A last example of a fight with high spike damage is Kephess in ec hm either 8 or 16 his spike damage can be negated. of course taking the debuff off the tank helps a lot as well however the amount of time you are tanking is very short before other tank takes over you can use 1 defensive ability together with a relic and then switch to other defensive cd and use last relics. depending on class you will have different amounts of def. cd's but generally speaking you will in many cases always have something up to pop.

relics i am talking about here are the ones ending with Imperiling Serenity and Shrouded Crusader. Check out Torhead for the ones im talking about.

So in conclusion - your relics can be switched and should be switched depending on what fight you're on. Don't just leave the relics on and dismiss other relics being better in other situations.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
09.21.2012 , 06:01 PM | #2
I don't think anyone ever asserted that clicky relics aren't better in certain fights where high damage phases are predictable. They do fall behind static PvP relics when the damage is consistently high or unpredictable. I personally run both and swap them depending on the fight.

Toth + Zorn and Foreman Crusher I run a clicky shield relic. Everything else I run the passive Defense relic. For NiM Jarg & Sorno, it is important to remember that Jarg's biggest hits are ele/int damage and much of Sorno's heavy damage can be prevented by interrupting unload. As such, the clicky relics aren't AS useful in this fight but can be used to provide an extra CD if you find you are needing them.

Marb's Avatar


Marb
09.21.2012 , 10:08 PM | #3
As a vanguard using the shield/absorb looks good, but when I swap out the pvp relic I loose a heap of defence, so I end up using the defence click relic (even though the duration should be 10seconds longer)

Also, I have read that using the absorb proc relic with the shield/absorb click causes some righteous DR, making the def click relic better if using the absorb proc.

Or would using 2 click relics be better in these damage spike fights? that would give 2 relics to rotate in with defensive cool-downs for kephess' last phase. The shared cool-down would be up on the the 2nd relic in time, meaning a relic would be up for the first and third tank swaps.
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Teioh_White
09.22.2012 , 03:21 PM | #4
I pretty much always use a WH Shield+ Campaign Shield booster, as when the proc kicks in, it jumps me from 70% to 77.5% absorb, which is almost 25% less damage taken per shield while it's up.

I'm trying to think what Fights burst a ton of white damage at you. Jarg loves to beat the snot out of me on our NM runs, but that's mostly as my Shields aren't a great deal of help against him. It would be nice on Crusher, whose pretty tame outside his frenzy moments, and that's what I used to do before the WH relic's came out, as use it combined with oil slick as a mini CD in between power shields.

EC would be similar, as Toth's Berserk can hurt, and I'm not getting any benefits from Shields with Zoth, so less advantage for the always on relics. Same thing on Tanks, but Firebrand doesn't really have much burst to worry about at all. Kephess could be a big one, but he's more or less always in perma kick my *** mode, with no real spike phase, so I prefer the always on effects there, as while it'll help this time, next time I swap back in, i'll miss that 3.5% shields.

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Kitru
09.22.2012 , 04:00 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Teioh_White View Post
Kephess could be a big one, but he's more or less always in perma kick my *** mode, with no real spike phase, so I prefer the always on effects there, as while it'll help this time, next time I swap back in, i'll miss that 3.5% shields.
Kephess forces you to use tank swaps, which diminish the value of the passive relics in favor of the use relics. When you're not on Kephess, you don't have the benefit. When you are on Kephess, roughly every other time, you'll have that use proc up to bolster your survivability (meaning that the uptime goes up from 25% to roughly 50%, which definitely favors it over the passive). Whenever you're not tanking something, or are tanking something that ignores your defense, the passive relics are progressively less useful the longer you're on said target and the more useful the use relics become, assuming that you're going to switch back to a situation wherein the tank stats *are* useful.
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grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
09.23.2012 , 02:32 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Marb View Post
As a vanguard using the shield/absorb looks good, but when I swap out the pvp relic I loose a heap of defence, so I end up using the defence click relic (even though the duration should be 10seconds longer)

Also, I have read that using the absorb proc relic with the shield/absorb click causes some righteous DR, making the def click relic better if using the absorb proc.

Or would using 2 click relics be better in these damage spike fights? that would give 2 relics to rotate in with defensive cool-downs for kephess' last phase. The shared cool-down would be up on the the 2nd relic in time, meaning a relic would be up for the first and third tank swaps.
Dual clicky relics is arguably the least useful option as they share a CD. If you're going to run clickies, pick one type for the fight and run a passive or proc relic in the other slot.

Back to the absorb proc relics. I don't like them because:
- They only increase mitigation on attacks that would already be mitigated anyway (its the ones you don't mitigate that kill you).
- You can't control when they proc (same reason I hate the healing proc relic, no point if it procs when I top off a DPS).
They're still completely viable and great for increasing your mean mitigation, but IMO they help your healer rather than actually keeping you alive.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Kephess forces you to use tank swaps, which diminish the value of the passive relics in favor of the use relics. When you're not on Kephess, you don't have the benefit. When you are on Kephess, roughly every other time, you'll have that use proc up to bolster your survivability (meaning that the uptime goes up from 25% to roughly 50%, which definitely favors it over the passive). Whenever you're not tanking something, or are tanking something that ignores your defense, the passive relics are progressively less useful the longer you're on said target and the more useful the use relics become, assuming that you're going to switch back to a situation wherein the tank stats *are* useful.
The clicky relics become more useful every time the fight reaches a 3 minute threshold (aka, they come off CD). Every time the fight drags on past that point they go down in effectiveness. A 3:30 fight favours a clicky relic while a 2:50 fight favours the passive. All that assumes that the relics are used on CD to increase mean mitigation and not held as an extra CD. If you need an extra CD the relics are great for that but if you are using them to increase your mean mitigation (in a stand and take it fight) then the passive ones are (IMO) better - set and forget.

Again: if the fight has predictable (and unavoidable) high damage phases, the clicky relic comes out ahead. Pure math indicates that fights with partial uptime (tank swaps or breaks in combat) also favour the clickies, but I still prefer passive relics for these. Why? If I have a clicky relic I use it like an extra CD and not to increase mean mitigation.

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Kitru
09.23.2012 , 09:06 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
The clicky relics become more useful every time the fight reaches a 3 minute threshold (aka, they come off CD).
They're on a 2 min CD, not a 3 min.
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grallmate
09.23.2012 , 03:15 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
They're on a 2 min CD, not a 3 min.
I assume that was changed with 1.3 then because I am certain they used to be 3 minutes? Regardless the above still applies, just change 3:30 to 2:30 and 2:50 to 1:50.

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TheronFett
09.24.2012 , 10:14 AM | #9
On-use and proc relics really aren't worth a damn in my experience (PT tank). You're counting on them to be useful/available when you need them the most, and that's just not the case. The tank should be in control of when he needs a boost, not leaving it to chance.

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Kitru
09.24.2012 , 10:57 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by TheronFett View Post
On-use and proc relics really aren't worth a damn in my experience (PT tank). You're counting on them to be useful/available when you need them the most, and that's just not the case. The tank should be in control of when he needs a boost, not leaving it to chance.
The logic between those 2 statements is completely contradictory. The tank controls when to use the use relics, so the tank has the ability to specifically activate the ability when needed. The proc has a 100% chance to activate when you successfully shield, which, unless you're not stacking Shield whatsoever, is going to happen within 1-2 GCDs of the ICD coming off. The proc relic may be "random", but it's got a good enough uptime on a short enough ICD that it more than offsets it.

The only advantage to the passive relics is that they are just that: passive. The proc relic has the best mean contribution even though it's only active for ~30% of the time, and the use relics have the most controllable/burst damage resistant nature (because they're functionally an extra CD). The passives are only best if you're largely unwilling to learn fights and then react to the changing situation and varying damage levels virtually every boss operates with now as well as unwilling to cede to the mathematical superiority of the proc relic (which, regardless of how you feel about randomness, provide more mitigation than the passive relics do).
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