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Dear Developers, Accuracy Considered Harmful

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
Dear Developers, Accuracy Considered Harmful

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
09.17.2012 , 04:44 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Dhariq View Post
Also I have never seen them care anymore about cases with math.
Just because the devs don't post in a thread doesn't mean that they don't pay attention to it. My experiences with using math to get developers to reevaluate models and design decisions is based upon my personal experiences in other games, wherein I've actually seen math from players explicitly added into the game (it's explicitly happened to me with my math on several occasions). Rarely is it ever expressly mentioned (other than by a developer saying "Well look at that."), but it occurs. Lack of an explicit response to a post in an industry that is notoriously close mouthed (there is a reason that none of the developers are allowed to post on the forums and everything goes through the community managers; execs and people in charge realize how bad community backlash can get when the people working on the back end aren't regulated and end up contracting a terminal case of foot-in-mouth disease) is not evidence that there was no response. You're never going to get a determinative causal relationship. The best you can hope for is a decent correlation, which, while not allowing you to explicitly determine a cause-effect relationship, you can make a reasonable conclusion that it happens. Unless the developers in BW are of a completely different breed than every other band of game developers out there, they react to player commentary, and they react much better when players speak to them in their native language (and math is the native language of all balance-minded folks).
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RLWalker's Avatar


RLWalker
09.17.2012 , 03:48 PM | #12
I don't follow your math.

Your first part says you hit with 68 saber strikes and missed 16. The average hit was 192.75 (not sure if this average includes zeros). Therefore you missed out on a potential 16*192.75 = 3084 damage. The elapsed time of your experiment was 368 seconds which means 3084/368 = 8.38 dps. You instead report 0.647 dps lost which is 13 times too low.

I didn't check the rest of the math but I think you should do a review of the numbers.

In addition, do not assume that spinning strike will not miss! It can and does miss, with a very high variance because of the low number of strikes per fight. Missing one spinning strike of 2000 damage over 5 minutes is 6.66 dps! (not to mention < 30% is often critical phase in some fights).

Please note: I am not advocating accuracy for tanks.

Quick guide to 1.4 gearing for tanks:
1. Get Dread Guard gear.
2. Replace accuracy enhancements with your campaign enhancements.
3. Get more Dread Guard gear.
4. Customize your hp and mitigation stats to your liking.

Dhariq's Avatar


Dhariq
09.20.2012 , 06:35 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Just because the devs don't post in a thread doesn't mean that they don't pay attention to it. My experiences with using math to get developers to reevaluate models and design decisions is based upon my personal experiences in other games, wherein I've actually seen math from players explicitly added into the game (it's explicitly happened to me with my math on several occasions). Rarely is it ever expressly mentioned (other than by a developer saying "Well look at that."), but it occurs. Lack of an explicit response to a post in an industry that is notoriously close mouthed (there is a reason that none of the developers are allowed to post on the forums and everything goes through the community managers; execs and people in charge realize how bad community backlash can get when the people working on the back end aren't regulated and end up contracting a terminal case of foot-in-mouth disease) is not evidence that there was no response. You're never going to get a determinative causal relationship. The best you can hope for is a decent correlation, which, while not allowing you to explicitly determine a cause-effect relationship, you can make a reasonable conclusion that it happens. Unless the developers in BW are of a completely different breed than every other band of game developers out there, they react to player commentary, and they react much better when players speak to them in their native language (and math is the native language of all balance-minded folks).
You sound like the average religious person here. God listens, I know it because, well... he does. But yes other games have reacted to feedback that is true. This game is not other games unfortunatly. But lets hope your faith is not missplaced and that I am just a cynic that is dead wrong. Amen.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
09.20.2012 , 07:54 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Dhariq View Post
You sound like the average religious person here. God listens, I know it because, well... he does. But yes other games have reacted to feedback that is true. This game is not other games unfortunatly. But lets hope your faith is not missplaced and that I am just a cynic that is dead wrong. Amen.
I'm actually a cynic as well and I do not simply blindly trust. I trust my own personal experiences and simply trust the developers to actually work to amend any problems they discover. In all of my experiences, math is *substantially* better at making an argument that the developers are willing to listen to than simple words.

It's not a question of behaving in a manner more befitting a religion; there is direct evidence that the developers exist and plenty of evidence that the developers actually read the forums. The only "leap of faith" is that the developers specifically read the forums and posts in question and that the developers behave as *every other set of developers* that I have ever interacted with. I find both of those to be reasonable enough conclusions: programmers and number crunchers (categories which the developers happen to both belong to) respond much better to math as opposed to simple argument and, even though the developers do not respond to individual threads in these forums, it's obvious from their statements and actions that they read them regardless.

You may claim to be a cynic, though, in reality, the more appropriate moniker would be "pessimist". It's hard to make the claim that the developers are somehow interested in demolishing the game (any degree of self interest would countermand that argument purely upon the merits of their job relying upon the game's continued success) or that they specifically act to contradict your goals. At best, the developers are too slow and/or make decisions that some people (you among them) disagree with. That's pessimism, not cynicism.

Personally, I'm a realist. I believe that people are idiots but most of them try to not be so (keep in mind I said *try*; most people outright fail). When confronted with sufficient information to counter their claims or beliefs, especially when they are not being directly confronted (which is how the forums operate since the developers don't post in the class forums), most people are willing to accede that they were wrong in the past rather than continue on in the belief that they are right, regardless of the data in front of them (assuming we're not talking about something as psychologically schematic as religion or politics).
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Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
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