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Developer Update: Class Changes and Balance in Game Update 1.4

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Developer Update: Class Changes and Balance in Game Update 1.4
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Tickdoff-Tank's Avatar


Tickdoff-Tank
09.16.2012 , 04:11 PM | #731
If you have problems leveling a pyro merc then you need to L2P. Sorry, but that is just the way it is.
"He uses statistics like a drunken man uses a lightpost: For support rather than Illumination." E. Lang

cool-dude's Avatar


cool-dude
09.18.2012 , 12:23 AM | #732
In regards to the 20 sec cool-down on force speed for inquisitors.

Does this mean that tank-sins are going to have the ability to damn near spam force speed? Tanksins can reduce force speed cooldown by 10secs, which means that they'll force speed every 10 secs. This can create an unfair advantage in pvp; especially huttball and ALD.

In regards to the changes regarding crowd control.

By Bioware's own admission, the original idea was go in as stealth, and use it on an unaware opponent from a distance. which is more or less the point in pvp. Now, you'll have to make your opponent aware of your intentions and presence. Sounds like a change made for ****** players to me. Sure, everyone gets frustrated when it happens to them, but that's why in pvp, you need teamwork. You need a buddy to back you up, for those situations. You need to call inc, you need to use your head. This change will have a negative affect on pvp.
"Sarcasm is strong in this one"

Bleakmage's Avatar


Bleakmage
09.18.2012 , 09:47 PM | #733
Quote: Originally Posted by cool-dude View Post
In regards to the 20 sec cool-down on force speed for inquisitors.

Does this mean that tank-sins are going to have the ability to damn near spam force speed? Tanksins can reduce force speed cooldown by 10secs, which means that they'll force speed every 10 secs. This can create an unfair advantage in pvp; especially huttball and ALD.

In regards to the changes regarding crowd control.

By Bioware's own admission, the original idea was go in as stealth, and use it on an unaware opponent from a distance. which is more or less the point in pvp. Now, you'll have to make your opponent aware of your intentions and presence. Sounds like a change made for ****** players to me. Sure, everyone gets frustrated when it happens to them, but that's why in pvp, you need teamwork. You need a buddy to back you up, for those situations. You need to call inc, you need to use your head. This change will have a negative affect on pvp.
Once the ball gets rolling on nerfing, its only the beginning of the negativity. I guess the 'up' side is they will eventually get around to nerfing every class, but then, some other class will have a slight 'advantage' and that will of course have to be addressed, and why all of a sudden did so and so class get their powers back? (Whineathon) oh, ok, we'll take it back again ad infinitum. . .

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
09.19.2012 , 01:27 AM | #734
I still want to know why some DPS classes lag well behind others in PvE when the developers said a few months ago that their target is to have all the DPS classes perform within 5 percent of each other in PvE. The data from parses and SimC shows certain DPS classes are 10 percent or more ahead of others in best-in-slot gear. And the changes in 1.4 did nothing to address this discrepancy. The best-performing DPS classes did not get their damage nerfed. The lowest performing DPS classes did not get damage buffs. Is Bioware abandoning this target? Do they just cave to whatever the PvPers want and to hell with PvE? I'd like an answer from one of the developers but don't expect I will get one.

kjng's Avatar


kjng
09.19.2012 , 01:57 AM | #735
Quote: Originally Posted by cool-dude View Post
In regards to the 20 sec cool-down on force speed for inquisitors.

Does this mean that tank-sins are going to have the ability to damn near spam force speed? Tanksins can reduce force speed cooldown by 10secs, which means that they'll force speed every 10 secs. This can create an unfair advantage in pvp; especially huttball and ALD.

In regards to the changes regarding crowd control.

By Bioware's own admission, the original idea was go in as stealth, and use it on an unaware opponent from a distance. which is more or less the point in pvp. Now, you'll have to make your opponent aware of your intentions and presence. Sounds like a change made for ****** players to me. Sure, everyone gets frustrated when it happens to them, but that's why in pvp, you need teamwork. You need a buddy to back you up, for those situations. You need to call inc, you need to use your head. This change will have a negative affect on pvp.
If I remember correctly, the tank tree do not have cd reduction for force speed anymore. You can only do that in the infiltration tree, which has the max. cd reduction of 5s. That makes the shortest cd for force speed 15s.

If you want unfair speed in civil war, look at the scoundrel/operative, where they can get almost constant 50% speed boost out of combat

MartinSPT's Avatar


MartinSPT
09.19.2012 , 04:23 AM | #736
Developers, implement a simple rule check on changes, treat it like a business...

1) Is this change to help us or to help customers? If it is only to help you, do not do it.
2) Is this change taking away any sense of power or abilities? If so don't do it.
3) Is the change relevant beyond the math weighting of ability? Often ability weighting changes or doesn't always apply, thus making the concessions wrong or poorly implemented.

So Cone Knockback?
Fails on #1, sure it helps you balance, but doesn't help any customer of the game. Very few players have a problem with it being a full 360 degree knockback. Especially considering the games ability to handle facing direction and lag, this is going to 'hurt' players as it will add more confusion. Right now, doing a Maul or a Force Push in the 'correct' direction is hard in PVP as all it takes is one player to have a crappy connection and even the players on nice 15ms fiber connections get screwed.

Force Speed?
Does it really outweigh the reduction of the Stun feature? In the match it looks like a nice trade, but in reality, players that were not range stun dependent, will exploit the heck out of this. Sorc/Sage already are tanking in PVE/PVP and now they can FR more often and heal themselves easier. Why not just give them a KILL EVERYONE button?


There are some really strange things with the way the stun balance is being implemented, and instead of working to solve the problem in programming by creating a new dynamic, it seems like the developsers are taking the easy/lazy way out, and altering the current ability set to compensate.

In the live game, taking a Guardian and a Sage at 50, the Sage will be able to take more damage and outlast the Guardian if they focus on force armor, heals, and distancing from damage. And they can spike far more damage as well. How does this MAKE SENSE, when one is a damage/healing class and the other is supposed to be a tank?

This is where the game is off balance. Sure a game cannot ever be truly balanced unless everyone has the same abilities aka HALO. However, in an MMO, cross balancing should be resolution, so that Class A is the balance to Class X, and Class B is the balance to Class Y, and Class C is the balance to Class Z, and on and on.

Using this concept, what profession is the 'balance' to sorc/sage? I can't find one that beat them in a duel or one that can out damage them or one that can take more damage than they can.

Do you want this to be flavor of the month? And we all spend time rolling sage/sorc and stop playing the other classes?

I could be completely wrong, but I don't see the counterpoint or in game proof yet.
Just additional thoughts, and still a lot of concern for 1.4 changes.

Bleakmage's Avatar


Bleakmage
09.19.2012 , 09:27 PM | #737
Quote: Originally Posted by MartinSPT View Post
Developers, implement a simple rule check on changes, treat it like a business...

1) Is this change to help us or to help customers? If it is only to help you, do not do it.
2) Is this change taking away any sense of power or abilities? If so don't do it.
3) Is the change relevant beyond the math weighting of ability? Often ability weighting changes or doesn't always apply, thus making the concessions wrong or poorly implemented.

So Cone Knockback?
Fails on #1, sure it helps you balance, but doesn't help any customer of the game. Very few players have a problem with it being a full 360 degree knockback. Especially considering the games ability to handle facing direction and lag, this is going to 'hurt' players as it will add more confusion. Right now, doing a Maul or a Force Push in the 'correct' direction is hard in PVP as all it takes is one player to have a crappy connection and even the players on nice 15ms fiber connections get screwed.

Force Speed?
Does it really outweigh the reduction of the Stun feature? In the match it looks like a nice trade, but in reality, players that were not range stun dependent, will exploit the heck out of this. Sorc/Sage already are tanking in PVE/PVP and now they can FR more often and heal themselves easier. Why not just give them a KILL EVERYONE button?


There are some really strange things with the way the stun balance is being implemented, and instead of working to solve the problem in programming by creating a new dynamic, it seems like the developsers are taking the easy/lazy way out, and altering the current ability set to compensate.

In the live game, taking a Guardian and a Sage at 50, the Sage will be able to take more damage and outlast the Guardian if they focus on force armor, heals, and distancing from damage. And they can spike far more damage as well. How does this MAKE SENSE, when one is a damage/healing class and the other is supposed to be a tank?

This is where the game is off balance. Sure a game cannot ever be truly balanced unless everyone has the same abilities aka HALO. However, in an MMO, cross balancing should be resolution, so that Class A is the balance to Class X, and Class B is the balance to Class Y, and Class C is the balance to Class Z, and on and on.

Using this concept, what profession is the 'balance' to sorc/sage? I can't find one that beat them in a duel or one that can out damage them or one that can take more damage than they can.

Do you want this to be flavor of the month? And we all spend time rolling sage/sorc and stop playing the other classes?

I could be completely wrong, but I don't see the counterpoint or in game proof yet.
Just additional thoughts, and still a lot of concern for 1.4 changes.
You make alot of good points. Sounds like a rock/paper/scissors+Sage/Sorc setup, and balancing like that probably does need to be addressed. My issue has been with changing a basic ability, like the 360 knockback into a cone. What good is that? I get resisted alot of the time with my Sage when I do that anyway. The cone idea is just lame. Reducing the distance of the Assassin's lightning is lame. Maybe having new dynamics to address these issues sound more like the answer. Another thing that might work is if random PvP groups could learn how to work as a team and not run in alone into a heavily-entrenched enemy position to feed enemy kill counts.

Nikei's Avatar


Nikei
09.20.2012 , 02:00 AM | #738
Quote: Originally Posted by anakedcowboy View Post
Every patch you nerf things for PVP that will have an unintended impact on PVE. Do you think force stun isn't used in PVE?
I'm trying to think what Ops bosses can be stunned....

Hmm. Ok, how about stunning Flash Point bosses...

Yeah. The rest of the PvE content is a speed bump.

Nikei's Avatar


Nikei
09.20.2012 , 02:09 AM | #739
Quote: Originally Posted by MartinSPT View Post
Using this concept, what profession is the 'balance' to sorc/sage? I can't find one that beat them in a duel or one that can out damage them or one that can take more damage than they can.
*snicker* Do they not have Sentinels/Mauraders on your sever? I know there is much drooling over Combat spec (damn fine tank killers), but Watchman's 6 second interupt basically turns anything with a cast bar dependency into so much walking sashimi, and having Sage/Sorc's knock back restricted to a cone makes them that much easier to run down and butcher. 2/3rds of the angles of approach are now missing their best anti-melee bulwark.

Nikei's Avatar


Nikei
09.20.2012 , 02:13 AM | #740
Quote: Originally Posted by cool-dude View Post
In regards to the 20 sec cool-down on force speed for inquisitors.

Does this mean that tank-sins are going to have the ability to damn near spam force speed? Tanksins can reduce force speed cooldown by 10secs, which means that they'll force speed every 10 secs.
If you read the patch notes you'll find that Shadows/Assassins do NOT take 10 second off of the the new base of 20. They can with skill points take 5 seconds off (minimum cooldown of 15 seconds). A bit faster than before, but not as bas as you're thinking.