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I despise tanking on my Jugger. I don't feel like I have adequate tools for the job.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
I despise tanking on my Jugger. I don't feel like I have adequate tools for the job.

Veeius's Avatar


Veeius
08.13.2012 , 03:38 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Michaelphoenix View Post
have you read the 1.3 patchnotes???
Juggs have 3 tools that work outside 10 meters.

1) Saberthrow: This shouldn't count as a tool because it does almost no threat at all. A healer can drop a BABY heal and out threat saberthrow.

2) Taunt: GREAT, but single target with a long cooldown.

3) Threatening scream: only 15m with a long cooldown.

Now, if there's no knockbacks, mezzes or stuns you STILL are going to have a heck of a time getting more than 2 or 3 mobs on you instead of the healer. When there's 6, spread over 50 or 60m, AND you're getting stunned, AND you're getting mezzed AND you get knocked back the INSTANT you charge, before you can even use a move - yes, jugg tanks SUCK.

I say this AS a jugg tank, AND as a healer. If I have an assassin or a bounty hunter tank, I know I mostly just have to focus the tank. If I have a jugg tank, I bubble him, bubble myself, hot myself, and stand right next to an LOS because I KNOW, that at least 1/2 of the mobs will start turreting at me.

Veeius's Avatar


Veeius
08.13.2012 , 03:41 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by _gideon View Post
I'm sure you've read it before but if you really take to heart the message that it is not necessary to tank every mob in a pack it gets a lot easier. Normal and weak mobs are not worth tanking, they die too fast and are passively CCed by so many of the DPSers' attacks anyway. Once you ignore them it's rare to fight more than three or four silver/gold mobs at a time.

As a healer let me say that you're wrong. A normal mob WILL hit me for 2k a shot. Now, if I'm doing NOTHING but healing myself, I can outheal that all day long. HOWEVER, it turns out that as a healer, generally I have to heal my tank or he dies pretty fast. So if I'm smashing heals into my tank, and I'm losing 2k (or 4k or 6k) every 2 seconds, I'm going to get into a lot of trouble really fast, and have to decide if I want to save the tank or myself.

DiLune's Avatar


DiLune
08.13.2012 , 04:09 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Veeius View Post
As a healer let me say that you're wrong. A normal mob WILL hit me for 2k a shot. Now, if I'm doing NOTHING but healing myself, I can outheal that all day long. HOWEVER, it turns out that as a healer, generally I have to heal my tank or he dies pretty fast. So if I'm smashing heals into my tank, and I'm losing 2k (or 4k or 6k) every 2 seconds, I'm going to get into a lot of trouble really fast, and have to decide if I want to save the tank or myself.
What you've missed is that the DPS should be quickly killing normals. They should never be on the healer, but if they are, its the DPS who are not doing their job. They're suffering from Silver/Gold fever where they can't help but attack the biggest enemy. If they would just kill the normals the tank would have enough time to gather up the silver and gold mobs and get plenty of agro ready for them to go to town. Its not like the tank is going to kill all of them by his lonesome.

AshlaBoga's Avatar


AshlaBoga
08.15.2012 , 06:53 AM | #14
The only issue I've had is that in a HM with 2 mercs, the limited range on my interrupt is a *******.
Typhojem Legacy, Jung Ma server
VICIOUS
Lord of Corruption

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
08.16.2012 , 07:02 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by andryWan View Post
To preface this: please believe me when I say I'm not trying to go off on you with some generic L2Pnewb! sort of rant or be a jerk about it, but...

Wait, what?

I worry about people seeing this and thinking that Guardians (or Juggs, they're people too) can't manage this, and I'm curious why you think that to be the case, or whether or not I'm simply misunderstanding your statement.

I've tanked LR-5 on my Guardian many times, I think I was still part Columi at first, and admittedly most of the time since I've been a little Rakata and a lot of Black Hole and some campaign, but overall that has largely served to increase my survivability, not really made it so that I'm some sort of aggro-spewing uber beast of a tank who instantly grabs and holds all threat and is completely immune to all forms of damage (although I tend to think that's the case at times, as I'm sure my healer would tell you).

You already said you're popping off your AOE taunt when the adds spawn, which is basically what I do once I see them in range. Generally speaking unless something else has gone amiss the adds die after a couple shots or an AOE from the DPS, so the six seconds that I'm sure they'll be attacking me even if I go afk right after is usually more than sufficient to make them die.

However, when I've run LI with newer people who probably have more of a life than I do and haven't run this particular fight a gazillion times and reflexively do whatever it is they're supposed to do at various phases of the fight they sometimes don't notice the adds (or are busy running in the opposite direction), or they'll sort of stack up on top of me after I AOE taunt. In the latter case, that can make them particularly difficult to see, what with the giant fire and lightning spewing deathbot eating my face.

I've never really had any particular problem in that scenario, and I'll just force sweep or cyclone slash them to death, usually doesn't take more than a couple.

After about the first 5-10 seconds of the fight, LR-5 isn't going anywhere I don't want him to unless I go afk or something, and the first 5-10 seconds are generally only dicey if I have particularly anxious DPS who can't wait for my force leap to the boss to interrupt his initial incinerate and force me to burn a taunt immediately after the leap.

Admittedly, this is a little trickier if you're running with melee DPS and are using the kite-around-the-room approach, although I usually find it easier to grab the adds quickly and decisively in that case since they're pretty much always within the range of my AOE taunt to snag them initially, and in more than a few cases, close enough for me to whack them with force sweep or cyclone slash quickly if my AOE taunt is off cooldown, which is usually enough to distract them long enough for the DPS and Healer not to have to worry about them overly much (aside from making them dead).

The biggest issue I have in the always-moving approach to the fight is that I just can't interrupt all the incinerates because I have to be moving when that needs to be done a lot of the time, if the rest of your party is all Commandos or Mercs, that'd be a bit of an issue, but I don't think that's ever happened. As long as one of the DPS know its their job to get incinerate and they don't miss it, not a big deal.

Now, if I just went off on that long tirade and all you really meant is that we don't have something like a force pull, or a ranged AOE to grab things that aren't already almost on top of us... well, yes, that's true. If you didn't have to worry about the aforementioned giant deathbot eating your face and staying put, you could use the usual jump-around-the-map tools of force leap and/or guardian leap, which obviously have limited utility in a boss fight (although I've been able to get away with a quick guardian leap and immediate force leap back to the boss in at least one case, wouldn't recommend it though, makes it easy for either a misstep or lag to make things go horribly wrong).
I think you missed my point. I didn't say we didn't have the tools to hold them all, I said we don't NEED to hold them all. I only taunt so that the adds run back towards me for a few seconds and aren't hitting my DPS. My DPS survive fine if I don't do this because most AoE's will passively stun the adds anyway but it helps my healer out. Anyway, if the mobs end up around me for a little bit, it means my DPS are also AoEing LR-5 which is a bonus.

With any adds I only ever put enough threat on them to keep them off my healer before I go back to the boss. After that its up to the DPS. Again, most AoE's have a passive stun to help them out. Lots of other attacks do too. If its a strong add I'll chuck a stun and maybe a taunt out too to keep them busy for a bit longer.

Dhariq's Avatar


Dhariq
08.22.2012 , 03:18 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Veeius View Post
Now, if there's no knockbacks, mezzes or stuns you STILL are going to have a heck of a time getting more than 2 or 3 mobs on you instead of the healer. When there's 6, spread over 50 or 60m, AND you're getting stunned, AND you're getting mezzed AND you get knocked back the INSTANT you charge, before you can even use a move - yes, jugg tanks SUCK.
I like to tank in general but this game makes me kinda tired of it from time to time.
Tanks are thrown around like ragdolls. You spring/jump in or something and immediatly get knocked down/back, stunned etc and ofc loose aggro because you are not attacking and if there are many mobs your kinda screwed because area taunts cd's.
Bosses streaming out undefendable damage against which you're basically just the focal point to heal with no real possibility to do anything about or even gear up against.
Both Juggernauts and Assassins also have part of the mitigation tied to an almost set value meaning it is so stupid that both actually have higher mitigation in 8 man than in 16 man.

I think I would like tanking more if it felt like I was actually doing it and if the mechanic very not so stupid that anyone who passed elementary math could see that you cannot even have "targets" unless you are talking about PT mitigation which is the only tank that have a mitigation that scales.

- Give all tanking trees some abilities high up in the tree that reduce the tossing around effects.
- Make keeping aggro less reliant on taunts. Make attacks generate more aggro but increase cd on taunts.
- Make all attacks defendable in some way so it always matters if you place a tank or a dps infront of stuff.
- Remove almost fixed number self heals and shields. Rework those so they scale in percent with incomming damage instead and you will also completely remove the problem with people screaming: OP he can solo a h4, or nerf them because they kill everyone in pvp, all this while the pve raid tanks raise their eyebrows because they are equally right thinking eh? I'm not at all OP.

stephenjohnp's Avatar


stephenjohnp
09.12.2012 , 08:02 PM | #17
For Flashpoints they are by far the worst, but the most fun to play.