Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Same gender relationships clarifications?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender relationships clarifications?
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

losdia's Avatar


losdia
09.03.2012 , 11:51 PM | #1091
Quote: Originally Posted by Uluain View Post
But were the President-for-Life of Namibia to do so, it would be. That was not a letter someone made up. Or rather, the someone who wrote it was doing so on behalf of the ESRB explaining their actual policy. If the same-gender content is no more or less explicit than the opposite gender content, there are no grounds to raise the rating.

Why do you want them to?
I don't WANT them to do it. Hell, (like I explicitly said) I don't even think they will do it for TOR. My point, and the part of my last two posts you've sniped, is that whatever they choose to say on the subject the ESRB DOES rate same sex content more harshly. They aren't as draconian about it as the MPAA, but they do it all the same. What they said in the message was perfectly true, the ESRB does not have a separate category for which to judge same sex content vs heterosexual content. The ESRB ratings are based on a series of content criteria which determines ratings. The way they use those content warnings is, however, arbitrary and tends to be weighted more harshly on games with same sex content. Of course they aren't going to actually admit that they do it, but they do it all the same.

Edit - Also, for no other reason than I fell like making the point, despite my making a joke about it Namibia doesn't really have a president for life. It is a very nice country (a member of the Commonwealth even), and I've heard it has the third best surfing in Africa.
"Say, Mike... Did we just do something horribly wrong?"
"Yeah, I think so."
-MST3K, Invasion USA

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
09.04.2012 , 01:14 AM | #1092
Quote: Originally Posted by losdia View Post
I don't WANT them to do it. Hell, (like I explicitly said) I don't even think they will do it for TOR. My point, and the part of my last two posts you've sniped, is that whatever they choose to say on the subject the ESRB DOES rate same sex content more harshly.
'Sniping' or not, The Sims has homosexual content which it isn't even subtle about (you don't get much more blatant than clicking on a bed and selecting 'WooHoo') and yet is Teen rated. SWTOR is rated M in Australia, amusingly enough, but Teen by the ESRB in America.

Frankly I'm surprised and confused that the ESRB only rated SWTOR as Teen considering there's explicit and quite horrifying torture in at least one of the class stories. In the face of causing a human so much pain that their brain liquefies I'd say two guys (or two girls) having a bit of a snog and then fading to black should be very small cheese indeed.
::Please Stand By, Signature Assessment Probe Commencing Analysis::

losdia's Avatar


losdia
09.04.2012 , 01:36 AM | #1093
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
'Sniping' or not, The Sims has homosexual content which it isn't even subtle about (you don't get much more blatant than clicking on a bed and selecting 'WooHoo') and yet is Teen rated. SWTOR is rated M in Australia, amusingly enough, but Teen by the ESRB in America.

Frankly I'm surprised and confused that the ESRB only rated SWTOR as Teen considering there's explicit and quite horrifying torture in at least one of the class stories. In the face of causing a human so much pain that their brain liquefies I'd say two guys (or two girls) having a bit of a snog and then fading to black should be very small cheese indeed.
Like I said a couple of posts ago, The Sims doesn't really count as an example since, as a sandbox game, it doesn't have a same sex *story* per se, only the potential for a player to create their own. There is a difference between that and a game with an inbuilt gay romance. That sort of thing (apparently) makes a difference when issuing ratings. Also, anything in the US rates even a tiny degree of sexuality much more harshly than fairly extreme violence. There is a great deal of history behind this ratings stuff, a lot of it very nasty if you know the particulars (seriously, if you want to feel very bad about humanity read up on the origin of the Comics Code as well as HUAC, The Black List, and the MPAA). No joking around though, read through ESRB issued ratings sometime, there has literally never been a game rated lower than an M with a full fledged gay romance. I think TOR will probably be the first.
"Say, Mike... Did we just do something horribly wrong?"
"Yeah, I think so."
-MST3K, Invasion USA

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
09.04.2012 , 01:58 AM | #1094
<shrugs> I see your point but I still think the Sims sets at least partial precedence and is thus a valid (if admittedly flawed) example of a game that brings the gay and yet is rated Teen. The precedence is the important bit. Though I do see your point, definitely.

As for the rest, no thank you. I have very distinct limits to the kind of hypocritical bollocks I'll put up with. 'Torture is fine for kids but two guys snogging isn't, kay,' is a something that really infuriates me. I can't see how any sensible-thinking adult human can possibly consider it justified. It's sick.
::Please Stand By, Signature Assessment Probe Commencing Analysis::

Chaac's Avatar


Chaac
09.04.2012 , 02:32 AM | #1095
Quote: Originally Posted by losdia View Post
Like I said a couple of posts ago, The Sims doesn't really count as an example since, as a sandbox game, it doesn't have a same sex *story* per se, only the potential for a player to create their own. There is a difference between that and a game with an inbuilt gay romance.

I would say the Sims counts as a better example than Tor itself. To access a SGRA in Tor were they included you would have to put hours of effort into the content by getting to the first conversation where you can flirt with a companion, then by spending time grinding affection to get to flirt number two and so on and so forth until you eventually reach the point where you are able to share a kiss with your companion and then fade to black. Compare that to the Sims where you can spend five minutes making two characters, decide at the creation screen that the two are married and then immediately put the two in bed together where they remove almost the entirety of their clothing and start having "woohoo". Yes there may not be a story behind it beyond what you create but in terms of accessibility it is much easier to create an SGR in the Sims than it would be in Tor. Tor won't have same-sex "story" per se, only the potential for a player to be involved in one.
Wedge: "I don't like this notion of dovin basal mines that pursue you."
Han: "Me, either. I'm going to draft a strongly worded letter to the Yuuzhan Vong high commander and insist he stop using them."

losdia's Avatar


losdia
09.04.2012 , 03:13 AM | #1096
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
<shrugs> I see your point but I still think the Sims sets at least partial precedence and is thus a valid (if admittedly flawed) example of a game that brings the gay and yet is rated Teen. The precedence is the important bit. Though I do see your point, definitely.
There are some games that set a vague precedent, but not really a true one.

There are a few more games that are basically Sims clones, or near enough, that are also rated T (although a couple of them have actually been kicked up to an M). There were several games over the last decade that had cut same sex content that could still be accessed through either a minor hack or a bug. Some games have avatar swaps that allowed for what was basically a bit of SGR headcanon. Beyond that, well...

Kotor, and a few other games with what can only loosely be called romance, sort of count. Depending on how much of a romance you regard Juhani/Revan as anyway. Not that what was there could be called much of a story. It was a conversation and a half that ends with them deciding that despite being in love they can't be together while they're focused on their epic quest (despite every other romance doing so) followed by a complete lack of any sort of resolution or ending. This sort of aborted romance arc probably does count, but it is hard to really see it. It doesn't really go anywhere and usually lacks even as much as a hug between the couple.

One of the Star Ocean games (IIRC 4 - whatever it was called) probably should count as a precedent, but the content was a type of "bad end" that was very hard to get and if you understand all of the connotations of what the Japanese call an "S-Class Relationship" (romantic friendship w/o benefits) it wasn't exactly much of one. It was sweet and somewhat well developed though, and it would be nice if it set a precedent to some companies that SGR doesn't need to be cut from JRPGs.

Beyond that pretty much any game that had (what will probably be) TOR style SGR has been M. To be fair, a lot of those games would have been M anyway (which in a bit of circular logic is probably why they had SGR in the first place), but there are quite a few that didn't really feel like an M game but were rated that way anyway (probably because of SGR, but who can really say).

Also, Chaac, as an avid Sims player I agree that SGR in The Sims is awesome. You're actually making me feel bad, I haven't played in a couple of weeks now. I think I might go do that for a few hours.
"Say, Mike... Did we just do something horribly wrong?"
"Yeah, I think so."
-MST3K, Invasion USA

Eleuril's Avatar


Eleuril
09.04.2012 , 08:22 AM | #1097
Quote: Originally Posted by losdia View Post
Beyond that pretty much any game that had (what will probably be) TOR style SGR has been M. To be fair, a lot of those games would have been M anyway (which in a bit of circular logic is probably why they had SGR in the first place), but there are quite a few that didn't really feel like an M game but were rated that way anyway (probably because of SGR, but who can really say).
I was surprised to find SWTOR was rated Teen in the USA, I'll be honest. I thought it'd be the equivalent of the 16+ rating it got over here in the EU. I'm not arguing for the rating to be changed or anything, don't get me wrong, it just surprised me. And that's with the content that's already in the game.

It's going to look very unfortunate if they do bump the rating up because of SGR, what with all the torture and holograms of pole dancers etc. that got the game rated T. The ESRB are keen to give the impression they do not rate more harshly over same-sex content alone. That may not always be reflected in reality, but it appears that official policy is to at least claim it has no effect on the rating. It is going to get them a lot of attention if they push for TOR's rating to be increased because of SGR alone. That's a lot harder to slip under the radar than simply giving it a higher rating at launch would have been if SGR had been in then. Whether the ESRB would care about that, I don't know.

I might well be wrong on all of this. I'll just be surprised - and rather dismayed - if SGR gets the rating pushed up all by itself. Whether they'll try and hide it under some sort of excuse is another matter, but I'd best leave it at that and not give anyone ideas.

Hessen's Avatar


Hessen
09.04.2012 , 09:44 AM | #1098
Honestly, I'm all for people asking for what they want in a game and demanding an answer from the community or development team on what content is coming and when.

But in the current limited scope of development with the current skeletal staff and the obvious move to maintenance mode that F2P is bringing, if SGRA implementation is prioritised over new operations, flashpoints, planets, bug fixes, Open world PvP, cosmetic options, mini-games, space battle revamp. That move will lose far more people than it will please.

Even the most staunch defenders of this can't possibly believe that the development time required will see a return on investment when compared to other player demands?
Twisted
EU - Tomb of Freedon Nadd
16m Raiding Guild - Recruiting

stuffystuffs's Avatar


stuffystuffs
09.04.2012 , 09:59 AM | #1099
Quote: Originally Posted by Hessen View Post
Honestly, I'm all for people asking for what they want in a game and demanding an answer from the community or development team on what content is coming and when.

But in the current limited scope of development with the current skeletal staff and the obvious move to maintenance mode that F2P is bringing, if SGRA implementation is prioritised over new operations, flashpoints, planets, bug fixes, Open world PvP, cosmetic options, mini-games, space battle revamp. That move will lose far more people than it will please.

Even the most staunch defenders of this can't possibly believe that the development time required will see a return on investment when compared to other player demands?
I wonder why people keep making comments like this when no one in the thread is stating that SGRA should be prioritized over anything else.

There's also 0 evidence that it is considering we are getting a new operation and probably new flashpoints very soon.

Regardless, a lot of the things you mentioned aren't important to a lot of people (I don't care about space battles and I can't say I know anyone who does), so I'm not sure what point you are making.
Node guarder

JediMB's Avatar


JediMB
09.04.2012 , 10:15 AM | #1100
When discussing priority it's also important to consider how highly valued new story content (the mythical Chapter 4) is valued, since that's what any "SGRA"-type content would be bundled with for obvious production-related reasons. That is, to minimize costs for VO work.
The Morrowbringer Legacy The Red Eclipse (PvE) [EU]
Deep into that darkness peering, you reach out your hand and grasp what you are searching for.
Now ring the bells that sweep away the darkness; the bells that beckon tomorrow's dawn.