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Regarding the Thousand Cuts and 3 Changes threads

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Regarding the Thousand Cuts and 3 Changes threads
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Urael's Avatar


Urael
08.29.2012 , 02:21 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by AstralProjection View Post
Anyone who played MMORPG's over the last 15 years and had eyes knows that every other company has been better than this one at communicating - and there is no burden on me to prove that to you, because I don't care one iota how you feel about my argument.

Yes, communication has become more important in recent years, all the more reason to step it up slightly instead of falling into the dark ages.
EA/BW is under no obligation to meet the expectations of the community based on the past performance of their competitors. It would be prudent however, if they made some effort towards this end. Many here don't see the difference and demand that EA/BW follow what is percieved to be the norm. That is the error.

Would I like more communication? Sure. I have posted this in other threads. Is EA/BW communicating more? I would have to say we have seen an uptick in quantity. As to quality, not so much. I don't blame the CRTeam. They can only communicate within the guidlines they are given.

Purly speculation but please indulge me, I think the sense of "slowness" may come from regular forum usage. The relative rate of quality information updates are slow in coming as compared to daily heavy use of the forums. The more one frequently uses the forums and doesn't see an update to a question(s) that they are interested answered day after day, minute after minute, one can get the sense that nothing is going on and even miss things when they do happen. People become saturated and perhaps even blinded by preconceived notions of what they will or will not see. Expectations need to be managed. Basically we are going to get information when it is able to be released. I am sure that the CRTeam communicates this to their management and development teams.

In summary, EA/BW is communicating more but not at the rate that we would like to see. The only thing we can do is wait and see what happens or move on. If you are having fun stay. If you have reached the point of no return, leave, go find a new game that you can be happy with. I don't understand why people stay around if they are past the point of no return ( the Imma unsubbed poster that just want to trash talk everything SWTOR not you AP).

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
08.29.2012 , 02:38 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
MMO players, in general, seem to take a "board of directors" entitlement approach to the games.

By this I mean that they often behave like they are on the companies board and that everything they share warrants a direct and immediate response by the companies developer and support staff.

The flaw in this approach is that you are a consumer, with no NDA in place with the company, and therefore not eligible to receive any information that is not vetted for public disclosure. Much of what MMO companies (really all corporations these days) do in terms of incorporating customer feedback into a product is never directly disclosed back to the customer until it is ready for release to the public in the product. You don't have to like it, but that is the way it is in today's competitive markets. Everything is potential IP, which means they err on the side of caution. That is your free market capitalsim model in action. Whereas what MMO players want is open socialism in the context of MMO games. Not going to happen.
Pretty much hits the nail on the head. Too bad a lot of truths like this fall on blind eyes:

Quote: Originally Posted by anakedcowboy View Post
This is probably not something you should be proud of. There were 4? 5? max locked threads protesting 1.2 sorc / sage changes, with detailed and constructive write-ups from actual high-end raiding sorc/sage healers which were completely ignored in favor of what you described as "internal metrics". 6 months later, our sage healers still haven't seen any reversion and still run out of force in HM EC.

If you're actually compiling the data like you say, the devs seem to genuinely not care what you give them. Does that not give you any sort of pause about what you're doing or what you communicate to us?
Just because it was detailed, construction, and well thought-out doesn't make it right or ultimately good for the game. We all want to pay $0 in taxes and can think of myriads of well thought-out and detailed ways to not pay taxes and do other things to make up for the lack of income via taxes. However that does not mean it will work or be good for the country.

BJ
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BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
08.29.2012 , 02:45 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by AstralProjection View Post
Example - In 3 things you'd like to see changed about this game, person X asked for more options to customize your starship.

1) Do the devs like this idea - e.g. let us know you're working on x idea suggested by the players
2) How high of a priority is this idea (can be general), but is it something that will take weeks, months, or years, based on where it is ranked? I don't want to hear "we want to do this someday", too noncommittal. Is there or is there not a resource working on it.
3) What's the rough timetable for the implementation of this idea? Can be tentative, but 3 months, this year, this spring, are all nice things that give us something other than "soon" or "not any time soon" to look forward to.
And the Most Exhaulted ArenaNet does the same thing. "When it's ready" is their trademark. I have played the game for 7 years and probably can count on one hand the number of times one of the actual devs (and not Community Management Member) posted in the forums in all that time. This may come as a great shock to many people, but sometimes the answers aren't there because there are no answers to be given on a particular question other than "We are thinking about it" or "We would like to do that in the future." You know, just like the reasons the government won't admit to a JFK assassination conspiracy or an alien ship at Roswell - because there wasn't any in either case.

BJ
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anakedcowboy's Avatar


anakedcowboy
08.29.2012 , 03:00 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
Just because it was detailed, construction, and well thought-out doesn't make it right or ultimately good for the game. We all want to pay $0 in taxes and can think of myriads of well thought-out and detailed ways to not pay taxes and do other things to make up for the lack of income via taxes. However that does not mean it will work or be good for the country.

BJ
Considering the sheer volume of people who quit based directly on the changes in 1.2 (half a dozen in the guild I was in at the time alone), I have no idea how you can say that brushing off hundreds, if not thousands, of comments with a 2 sentence response was good for the game. It is a huge mistake to assume the people in charge of a game play the game at the highest level. This has been proven in basically every MMO since EQ1

JWillets's Avatar


JWillets
08.29.2012 , 03:02 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by OnlyNameLeft View Post
to expect the dev team to take time away from their duties to confer with the community team concerning every suggestion proffered and give a response such as the three-tiered one you suggest would be incredibly time-consuming and wasteful from a business perspective.
Im guessing that the devs have a boss right? That boss wants a timetable created and deadlines met (assuming he's running a tight ship which I would think EA would want) to make sure that he/she is paying employees for a reason.

Im also assuming that as a creative studio (making new content and ideas), they have weekly or bi-weekly meetings with at least the heads of each department (whom i would hope know whats going on in their department) At said time, they can take 20 minutes to create a newsletter for paying customers. Choosing a few great ideas a week or every 2 weeks to get answered more thoughtfully than the previous Q&A with better selection than the weekly Q&A since the questions asked were generally f'ing stupid questions like "i want a pink speeder!" Hell, they can even pick 10 questions to get polled on by the community and ask the top 3.

Lets look at this from another profession. As an automotive technician, im expected to complete work in a fast and timely manner, both for the company and the customer. If it takes me an extremely long time to complete the job (the customer is paying a much higher bill since work is hourly, and is effectively wasting money when another shop couldve done it quicker and cheaper. When im doing say, a brake job, and my boss comes out to the bays and says, "Hey, how much longer till you're done? Im paying you you know right?" and if I reply "Soon, i have no new details to share at this time." Im getting fired.

People need to stop thinking that software development is like some kind of magic that nobody understands, its like people think that the timetables on new content are always going to be a mystery because its only when the purple snicklous of the 8th plane conflumigate their mystic and ancient powers of gordlunsh will content be allowed to release to the public so we should just shut up, roll alts, and continue to feed the higher beings our subscription money so that they are appeased. No, its a group of software professionals who have a job and reasonable expectations put onto them since their pay is coming out of our wallets. it's not unreasonable to ask, hey there fellas, soooooo.....what have you been doing for the past 8 months while you've been billing my paypal account?

Jaigen's Avatar


Jaigen
08.29.2012 , 03:25 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by JWillets View Post
Im guessing that the devs have a boss right? That boss wants a timetable created and deadlines met (assuming he's running a tight ship which I would think EA would want) to make sure that he/she is paying employees for a reason.

Im also assuming that as a creative studio (making new content and ideas), they have weekly or bi-weekly meetings with at least the heads of each department (whom i would hope know whats going on in their department) At said time, they can take 20 minutes to create a newsletter for paying customers. Choosing a few great ideas a week or every 2 weeks to get answered more thoughtfully than the previous Q&A with better selection than the weekly Q&A since the questions asked were generally f'ing stupid questions like "i want a pink speeder!" Hell, they can even pick 10 questions to get polled on by the community and ask the top 3.

Lets look at this from another profession. As an automotive technician, im expected to complete work in a fast and timely manner, both for the company and the customer. If it takes me an extremely long time to complete the job (the customer is paying a much higher bill since work is hourly, and is effectively wasting money when another shop couldve done it quicker and cheaper. When im doing say, a brake job, and my boss comes out to the bays and says, "Hey, how much longer till you're done? Im paying you you know right?" and if I reply "Soon, i have no new details to share at this time." Im getting fired.

People need to stop thinking that software development is like some kind of magic that nobody understands, its like people think that the timetables on new content are always going to be a mystery because its only when the purple snicklous of the 8th plane conflumigate their mystic and ancient powers of gordlunsh will content be allowed to release to the public so we should just shut up, roll alts, and continue to feed the higher beings our subscription money so that they are appeased. No, its a group of software professionals who have a job and reasonable expectations put onto them since their pay is coming out of our wallets. it's not unreasonable to ask, hey there fellas, soooooo.....what have you been doing for the past 8 months while you've been billing my paypal account?
As an automotive technician 99% of your problems can be solved if you look into a manual. This also goes for me because im a network manager for my company. But i have seen how programmers work in our company and they have to rely on trial and error. In short creative processes are different and sometimes time consuming and tedious for the developers. Their is no manual on how to create new FP WZ or Ops. So comparing your job with with the BW programmers job is not valid. Also with my own mmo experience i can tell you thisą the amount of content BW has pushed out is the highest so far of any mmo. So your complaints are not valid at all.

Jaigen's Avatar


Jaigen
08.29.2012 , 03:28 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by anakedcowboy View Post
Considering the sheer volume of people who quit based directly on the changes in 1.2 (half a dozen in the guild I was in at the time alone), I have no idea how you can say that brushing off hundreds, if not thousands, of comments with a 2 sentence response was good for the game. It is a huge mistake to assume the people in charge of a game play the game at the highest level. This has been proven in basically every MMO since EQ1
QQ less please 1.2 changes in my opinion where good(You sound a bit buthurt about the sorc changes mate). In fact the problem with many people leaving is because of the lack of endgame content. BW is addressing it 1.3 and future patches.

Goretzu's Avatar


Goretzu
08.29.2012 , 03:47 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
MMO players, in general, seem to take a "board of directors" entitlement approach to the games.

By this I mean that they often behave like they are on the companies board and that everything they share warrants a direct and immediate response by the companies developer and support staff.

Sorry, but that's nonsense.

Take the SSSP, I'd imagine most players would be satisfied to have the information the tea lady does, it's the vague hint followed by CIA information black out that causes people to get irritable.
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too?
Goretzu's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving "Entitled" approaches 1

Hessen's Avatar


Hessen
08.29.2012 , 04:09 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
We're very excited to see constructive feedback, and the threads mentioned here have generally been exactly that. Part of what the community team does is read what players are saying across many outlets (the forums, social networking, places like reddit, etc), compile feedback, and send it along. These threads have provided us with a lot of good and generally focused and detailed feedback, and we wanted to encourage them so we'd see even more constructive feedback in them to round up and pass along!

I don't have any specific plans of action on individual items to share (and remember, we're always gathering and passing feedback along already - you may remember the class feedback threads we posted a while ago), but your suggestions, complaints, and feedback definitely reach the developers, and it helps inform decisions about upcoming changes and content.
Good to know.

May I suggest some kind of "you've said, we've listened" type of thread, where community feedback that has been listened to (and something is actually implemented as a result) is documented.

I think it would help give a visual demonstration to the customers that the lines of communication are open.

Yes, it might stir up some "I can't believe they implemented this, and didn't implement this" type of responses. But I think that's just something that would have to be put up with. One man's meat is another man's poison and all.

Even initially as a show of faith, or as an example, fix something fairly minor that the forum community have been asking for, just to show that the words above aren't just lip service.

Tolunart's Avatar


Tolunart
08.29.2012 , 04:18 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Jaigen View Post
Also with my own mmo experience i can tell you thisą the amount of content BW has pushed out is the highest so far of any mmo. So your complaints are not valid at all.
Rift:

Since March 2011, nine updates each with a new World Event including new quests, NPCs, equipment, titles, costumes etc. WEs are multi-phase usually around 6-8 weeks long and include repeated seasonal themes and one-shot events.

Added a warfront and several dungeons, for solo/pair and 5-man teams, several new raids for 10- and 20-man teams. Last Fall they added Ember Isle which increased the size of the game world by 1/3rd and added a similar amount of content including new dungeons and raids.

They've made numerous quality improvements such as adding wardrobe options and recently the ability to reset character appearance. And Instant Adventures which is basically a 24-7 PUG that scales to the size of the group and is helpful for levelling alts when you've already done all the low level content twice already...

They're getting ready to release the 2.0 expansion around the time TOR goes FTP, more than doubling the game world and adding an equivalent amount of "stuff" along with it.

SWTOR is not a bad game. It is what it is, KoTOR 3 with some MMO parts duct-taped to it. But their content updates are abysmal, Rift had its first major update, World Event and new raid dungeon the month after release, and in its frst four months had added more content that TOR has added in nine.

The multiple storylines give TOR some replayability though the linear nature of the quests makes me reluctant to level two toons of the same faction together or one after the other, I'd rather do one Imp, one Pub and give it a rest for a few months before playing again. The MMO features are severely lacking and show the developers' inexperience at this kind of game as well as indicating that they tried to switch horses in the middle of the river and as a result a lot of things got washed away.