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Star Trek vs Star Wars (multiple scenarios)

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Star Trek vs Star Wars (multiple scenarios)

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
08.16.2012 , 03:06 PM | #331
Quote: Originally Posted by liammozz View Post
R2-D2 wouldn't be a threat to the star trek computers it would be like trying to plug in a usb lead in to a com 2 port his slicing device he has wouldn't fit in any of the star trek computers

where as in star trek they use triquters that they just put by computers so i have no idea how they would work against star wars teck
Technobabble is pretty much universally compatible because otherwise the most likely scenario is just that both universes's technology are incompatible with each other. You'd have both universes cursing at each other for building technology in such a primitive way that they cannot put their super hackers skills to use and that'd be pretty boring.

But overall I think Star Wars has very weak hacking skills from humanoids and this should be a significant disadvantage as long as the opposing universe knows to never leave an astromech droid alone. It should be pretty trivial to take out any astromech droids as they're not designed to withstand any kind of damage (though T7-01 is a surprisingly durable tank).

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
08.17.2012 , 09:26 PM | #332
Quote: Originally Posted by Sipah View Post
I see lots of arguing around the fact that the Empire would not have a map of the Federation to safely hyper around wherever they will. I got news for you: Quark or any other entrepreneurial information broker would very likely sell a full set of Federation navigational maps to the Empire for a couple chests of whatever precious metals they desire

Of course I expect a fanboi (including those that vehemently deny being one) to state that Quark would be too principled to do such a thing or that the navigational maps are super secret, non-transferable, encrypted with an unbreakable code, or some other techno-babble that would prevent the Empire from using their superior speed in any way.
It isn't simply that they don't have the astrogation charts, it's that even if they acquire said charts it wouldn't help because a lot of the astrogation routes are through areas that have gravity wells in the vicinity (basic star wars tech tidbit, Hyperdrives stop working in mass shadows, all gravity wells are mass shadows)... Plus the supposed invasion point was in the Delta Quadrant, the Ferengi are not present in the Delta Quadrant.

Second point, Star Trek does have a drive system that can easily match a Hyperdrive, it is a newer piece of Federation tech, it is called Quantum Slipstream drive...

Btw, if a Ferengi sold the Empire the information of how to get to Earth, odds are they would have sold the Federation that the Empire was on it's way (remember we are talking about the Ferengi here) so you'd have the Federation, Klingons, and that's just for starters... We know that ships using hyperdrives are blind while in hyperspace, but it is entirely possible that a Star Trek ship can detect ships barrelling in from hyperspace. If you study our solar system with the 9 planets (if you throw in Pluto as a planet), several of them being gas giants, it would be a navigational nightmare for ships using hyperdrives. If they come in from a route perpendicular to the orbits they would have to maneuver to do so, which would easily be detected considering Star Trek sensors function with minimal time delay at a range measured in Light Years...

That's assuming the Empire is intelligent enough to deal with the Ferengi, rather than their anti-alien bigotry... Annoy the Ferengi enough, and they'll find a way to screw the Empire over.

An aside to someone that made the comment about people not actually having matter/antimatter reactors...

All Federation Starships utilize something known as a warp core, the warp core is a matter/antimatter reaction chamber, plus the Federation developed a way to focus the reaction and the energy release to ensure that the energy is actually collected.

A Galaxy Class Starship is rated of being at the very least an even match against a Romulan Warbird (a vessel twice the size of a Galaxy Class). Romulan Warbirds are powered by an artificial quantum singularity (I think you might see this kind of power generation in StarGate: Atlantis).

An Imperial Star Destroyer gets its energy from a fusion reactor, which is pretty powerful, but is no match for the raw energy being released in a warp core.

A matter/antimatter reaction is quite literally e=mc^2, the reaction and the resulting energy release is being focused to ensure that there isn't energy that is lost (or keeping it to a minimum). It doesn't take a lot of antimatter to get an incredible energy release that makes a fusion reactor look like a complete joke.

While Hyperdrive can probably go faster than a Federation ship with warp drive can (at least on a prolonged timeframe), quantum slipstream can match a hyperdrive's speed rather easily and the ship isn't blind while using quantum slipstream.

Warp drive has a few other advantages:
1. Your sensors will operate while at warp, meaning you aren't blind.
2. Warp drive is substancially less effected by gravity wells short of neutron stars and black holes...
3. Weapons actually work at warp (particularly photon torpedos).
4. You can change course without dropping out of warp.

The Federation also have developed ways to detect cloaked ships, I don't think there are many examples of things able to detect cloaked ships in Star Wars.

Finally, Star Wars relies on just shooting a bunch of Turbolasers at an enemy to overpower shields with brute force. Star Trek actually has tactics to come up with ways to reduce the effectiveness of enemy shields, bypass enemy shields, find holes in enemy shields to lob a torpedo through and have it blow up inside the shields of the target, etc. Since we are talking about the Empire, it is safe to say that the entire compliment of every ship's TIE fighters are a nonfactor due to lack of shields, there are so many tactics in that could wipe out TIE fighters by the squadron in under a second that they are actually a handicap).

Star Wars tech tidbit: when launching TIE Fighters (which do not have hyperdrives), Imperial ships have to drop their particle shields. Not open a hole in the shields, they literally have to drop their particle shields.
Source: Star Wars the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, page xv, c. 1996
Another source is: The Courtship of Princess Leia

Given a Trek ship's sensor superiority, that means the Imperials would be 'exposing their soft meatbag underbelly and saying, "Here Federation starship please shoot me here repeatedly until I die."'

Star Trek ships are more maneuverable than Star Wars ships that are half a Star Trek ship's size... Star Trek's shuttlecraft, fighters, etc. would all be a serious factor, since they all have shields (many also have minature photon or quantum torpedos). The Defiant class also maneuvers like a fighter and is a pretty tough starship class. Considering Turbolasers inability to track small fast moving targets, and the fact the Imperials would lose nearly all their TIE Fighters rather quickly, the Empire would be in serious trouble, especially with some precise jumps to warp in order to get the Excelsior Class ships and Ambassador Class ships to take out the Lancer Class frigates, let the Defiants, shuttles, and fighters start taking apart the SSDs, while the Akiras, and Galaxies started mauling Victory Class Star Destroyers and ISDs, then we have Nebula Class ships entering the fray, along with Vor'cha, Negh Var, Bird of Preys, Sovereign Class, and Prometheus Class joining in the fray.

If the Imperials want to present unshielded hulls by trying to deploy TIE Fighters, I hope they don't mind a torpedo or two hitting the Bridge of a SSD, or the hanger of the SSD.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
08.18.2012 , 09:40 AM | #333
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
A Galaxy Class Starship is rated of being at the very least an even match against a Romulan Warbird (a vessel twice the size of a Galaxy Class). Romulan Warbirds are powered by an artificial quantum singularity (I think you might see this kind of power generation in StarGate: Atlantis).
Outside the Star Wars vs Star Trek discussion:

Where did you get this data? When I was more active in the Star Trek fandom, most people said that the Warbird is superior to almost all ships of it's time. (At least it's weapons.)
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Sipah's Avatar


Sipah
08.18.2012 , 11:34 AM | #334
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
It isn't simply that they don't have the astrogation charts, it's that even if they acquire said charts it wouldn't help because a lot of the astrogation routes are through areas that have gravity wells in the vicinity (basic star wars tech tidbit, Hyperdrives stop working in mass shadows, all gravity wells are mass shadows)... Plus the supposed invasion point was in the Delta Quadrant, the Ferengi are not present in the Delta Quadrant.

Second point, Star Trek does have a drive system that can easily match a Hyperdrive, it is a newer piece of Federation tech, it is called Quantum Slipstream drive...

Btw, if a Ferengi sold the Empire the information of how to get to Earth, odds are they would have sold the Federation that the Empire was on it's way (remember we are talking about the Ferengi here) so you'd have the Federation, Klingons, and that's just for starters... We know that ships using hyperdrives are blind while in hyperspace, but it is entirely possible that a Star Trek ship can detect ships barrelling in from hyperspace. If you study our solar system with the 9 planets (if you throw in Pluto as a planet), several of them being gas giants, it would be a navigational nightmare for ships using hyperdrives. If they come in from a route perpendicular to the orbits they would have to maneuver to do so, which would easily be detected considering Star Trek sensors function with minimal time delay at a range measured in Light Years...

That's assuming the Empire is intelligent enough to deal with the Ferengi, rather than their anti-alien bigotry... Annoy the Ferengi enough, and they'll find a way to screw the Empire over.

An aside to someone that made the comment about people not actually having matter/antimatter reactors...

All Federation Starships utilize something known as a warp core, the warp core is a matter/antimatter reaction chamber, plus the Federation developed a way to focus the reaction and the energy release to ensure that the energy is actually collected.

A Galaxy Class Starship is rated of being at the very least an even match against a Romulan Warbird (a vessel twice the size of a Galaxy Class). Romulan Warbirds are powered by an artificial quantum singularity (I think you might see this kind of power generation in StarGate: Atlantis).

An Imperial Star Destroyer gets its energy from a fusion reactor, which is pretty powerful, but is no match for the raw energy being released in a warp core.

A matter/antimatter reaction is quite literally e=mc^2, the reaction and the resulting energy release is being focused to ensure that there isn't energy that is lost (or keeping it to a minimum). It doesn't take a lot of antimatter to get an incredible energy release that makes a fusion reactor look like a complete joke.

While Hyperdrive can probably go faster than a Federation ship with warp drive can (at least on a prolonged timeframe), quantum slipstream can match a hyperdrive's speed rather easily and the ship isn't blind while using quantum slipstream.

Warp drive has a few other advantages:
1. Your sensors will operate while at warp, meaning you aren't blind.
2. Warp drive is substancially less effected by gravity wells short of neutron stars and black holes...
3. Weapons actually work at warp (particularly photon torpedos).
4. You can change course without dropping out of warp.

The Federation also have developed ways to detect cloaked ships, I don't think there are many examples of things able to detect cloaked ships in Star Wars.

Finally, Star Wars relies on just shooting a bunch of Turbolasers at an enemy to overpower shields with brute force. Star Trek actually has tactics to come up with ways to reduce the effectiveness of enemy shields, bypass enemy shields, find holes in enemy shields to lob a torpedo through and have it blow up inside the shields of the target, etc. Since we are talking about the Empire, it is safe to say that the entire compliment of every ship's TIE fighters are a nonfactor due to lack of shields, there are so many tactics in that could wipe out TIE fighters by the squadron in under a second that they are actually a handicap).

Star Wars tech tidbit: when launching TIE Fighters (which do not have hyperdrives), Imperial ships have to drop their particle shields. Not open a hole in the shields, they literally have to drop their particle shields.
Source: Star Wars the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, page xv, c. 1996
Another source is: The Courtship of Princess Leia

Given a Trek ship's sensor superiority, that means the Imperials would be 'exposing their soft meatbag underbelly and saying, "Here Federation starship please shoot me here repeatedly until I die."'

Star Trek ships are more maneuverable than Star Wars ships that are half a Star Trek ship's size... Star Trek's shuttlecraft, fighters, etc. would all be a serious factor, since they all have shields (many also have minature photon or quantum torpedos). The Defiant class also maneuvers like a fighter and is a pretty tough starship class. Considering Turbolasers inability to track small fast moving targets, and the fact the Imperials would lose nearly all their TIE Fighters rather quickly, the Empire would be in serious trouble, especially with some precise jumps to warp in order to get the Excelsior Class ships and Ambassador Class ships to take out the Lancer Class frigates, let the Defiants, shuttles, and fighters start taking apart the SSDs, while the Akiras, and Galaxies started mauling Victory Class Star Destroyers and ISDs, then we have Nebula Class ships entering the fray, along with Vor'cha, Negh Var, Bird of Preys, Sovereign Class, and Prometheus Class joining in the fray.

If the Imperials want to present unshielded hulls by trying to deploy TIE Fighters, I hope they don't mind a torpedo or two hitting the Bridge of a SSD, or the hanger of the SSD.
Like I said, someone will try to nullify the speed advantage the Galactic Empire has with regard to interstellar travel...

It's a shame really that an advanced star-faring civilization over 25,000 years old seems to always be on the losing side of a technological debate against the Federation that is around 500 years old. Trek tech will always be declared superior only because the Trek technical writers were far more clever with describing the technology of the Trek continuum. Star Wars tech writers left too many holes in their technology database (i.e. laser/blaster conundrum) because they were focused more on story telling.

I's all good. I really see no point in debating this any more and salute the savvy Trek writers. I really like the stories on both sides and am glad that they came to be, because they have opened up the imaginations of millions (if not billions) of people.

PaerisKiran's Avatar


PaerisKiran
08.18.2012 , 02:15 PM | #335
Be at ease with speed of development in Star Trek... in Stargate Earth went from non-starfaring civilisation to most technologicaly advanced superpower within few billion lightyears radius of Milky way just in 15 years of Daniel Jackson realizing what 7 symbols on one stone mean.

(Granted Asgard and Ancient civilizations, from which these technologies originate, both go back at least 50 million years. (that is approximate age of beta gate from Antarctica and rough age of Destiny. Which is a bit (albeit not by much) older) Ancients weren´t traversing space for very long in their self-chosen exile from Ori, few dozen millenia at best).

Star trek at least give you dignity to argue who is better... Wraith that grow normaly ships size of super star destroyers (Hive ships- though these lack shields, they can take pounding no unshielded Star wars ship could), Asgard hyperdrives that traverse galaxy within two minutes. (Earth has schematics, though does not have ships with sufficient power generation abilities... since building 1,6 km long Asgard vessels on Earth would be nearly impossible to hide). Weapons to dilate time, collapse stars into black holes. Beaming technology vastly superior to Star trek, unmatched cloaking devices on personal and ship level. Plasma beams and missiles that surround themselves with plasma field to slice through shields.
And best... nice ultrasonic tools to render parts of the brain responsible for "supernatural abilities" useless. (albeit both telepathy and telekinetics in Stargate are just physical function of brain).

Used to be arguments here for W40k x Stargate x Star trek x Starwars... in the end only Stargate and W40k really competed.
When all the world is overcharged with inhabitants, then the last remedy od all is war, which provided for every man, by victory or death.

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
08.18.2012 , 07:38 PM | #336
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Outside the Star Wars vs Star Trek discussion:

Where did you get this data? When I was more active in the Star Trek fandom, most people said that the Warbird is superior to almost all ships of it's time. (At least it's weapons.)
They were, the Galaxy Class was about the only class of ship that could stand toe to toe against a Romulan Warbird in a slugfest and go head to head.

Romulan Warbirds could mop the floor with an Excelsior Class, Ambassador Class, etc.

One thing people need to recognize is the Romulan Warbird is actually an older design than the Galaxy Class. Up until the Defiant class, Sovereign Class, and Prometheus Class, the Galaxy class was the only ship in Star Fleet that could be expected to be able to go toe to toe against a Romulan Warbird.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sipah View Post
Like I said, someone will try to nullify the speed advantage the Galactic Empire has with regard to interstellar travel...

It's a shame really that an advanced star-faring civilization over 25,000 years old seems to always be on the losing side of a technological debate against the Federation that is around 500 years old. Trek tech will always be declared superior only because the Trek technical writers were far more clever with describing the technology of the Trek continuum. Star Wars tech writers left too many holes in their technology database (i.e. laser/blaster conundrum) because they were focused more on story telling.

I's all good. I really see no point in debating this any more and salute the savvy Trek writers. I really like the stories on both sides and am glad that they came to be, because they have opened up the imaginations of millions (if not billions) of people.
It's probably because Star Wars kept loosing knowledge of technology and then reinvent the same tech over and over... An additional item to consider is the fact the Star Wars universe was rather stagnent for large stretches of time. In Star Trek, the Federation has numerous neighbors (some hostile), and therefore have been in a constant competition to stay one step ahead of adversaries. Add to the fact that species superiority complex groups tend to fall flat on their face in the Federation, for example while a good portion of Star Fleet is humans, there are quite a few nonhumans, you see people accepted more on merit.

If there ended up a fight between the Empire and the Federation, I think the Federation could halt the Empire fairly easily. However, I don't see them going into Imperial Space to launch their own invasion, I could see them decide to set up some cloaked listening posts and hack Imperial Databases, then feed that information to the Rebel Alliance and let the Rebels determine their own Galaxy's fate.

jarjarloves's Avatar


jarjarloves
08.22.2012 , 04:33 PM | #337
damn I go away on vactaion and I miss everything.

Well i'm not going to bother reading all those new posts but can someone tell me was anyone able to find a way around Star Wars weapons being plasma based so they would be 100% useless against Star Treks shields?

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
08.22.2012 , 06:30 PM | #338
Quote: Originally Posted by jarjarloves View Post
damn I go away on vactaion and I miss everything.

Well i'm not going to bother reading all those new posts but can someone tell me was anyone able to find a way around Star Wars weapons being plasma based so they would be 100% useless against Star Treks shields?
Nope, nor have the addressed the fact that ships in hyperspace are completely blind, while ships using slipstream or warp drive are not... A ship at Warp can communicate with other ships, stations, planets, etc. A ship in hyperspace has no ability to communicate with anyone else until they drop out of hyperspace.

Star Trek ships have sensor technology that literally can detect something that is lightyears away in practically real time, Star Wars sensor tech appears to be limited to the light barrier for the most part (which explains why Star Wars ships are blind in hyperspace).

Star Trek ships literally have fought battles while traveling faster than light. They can coordinate fleet actions while traveling faster than light, when Star Wars ships first drop out of hyperspace they are trying to check to see if everyone is there for a reason...

If everyone would recall RotJ where they were demanding all units check in, that was cause they have no communication while the fleet was in hyperspace.

Heck, Archer's NX-01 Enterprise's sensor tech was superior to any Star Wars ship's sensor capability, Archer's Enterprise could communicate with other ships, while at warp...

--------------------------------

Then we have some obvious sublight speed differences.

A proton torpedo can catch starfighters in Star Wars, well proton torpedos from starfighters in Star Wars supposedly have a range of 2 km optimal range, and a max range of 6 km...
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/MG7-A_proton_torpedo

In the early 23rd century the Federation's photon torpedo had a maximum range of 750,000 km... During the latter half of the 23rd century an entirely new photon torpedo design was implimented with a maximum effective tactical range of 3,500,000 km. Also Photon Torpedo can be fired at warp and actually hit another target which is either at warp or sublight.

So a standard photon torpedo from the early 23rd century had a max range that is well over 100,000x the range of a proton torpedo.

So all this talk about small fast moving fighters and being unable to hit them, uh if a torpedo with the range of 6 km can hit another starfighter... I get the feeling that Star Wars starfighters would actually be rather easy for a Federation Starship to take out.

Got that information from the TNG Technical manual...

Also according to the Technical Manual, Type X phaser arrays have a maximum tactical range of 300,000 km...

Star Wars Hyperdrive may be faster than warp drive, however Star Trek appears to have faster sublight drive systems.