EA COO (Peter Moore) maintains confidence in BioWare

Trying to twist the definition of "PvP" is absurd to say the least.

PvP means Player versus Player. If you are fighting against another player at any time, anywhere, or for any reason, it is PvP.

No one cares that you used to play a free-for-all MMO that had permadeath. There's a reason those aren't around anymore because no one likes them except the most hardcore of the hardcore. You aren't superior to us just because you used to play a game with death penalties.

I and a great deal many others happen to enjoy the PvP in this game, limited and flawed though it may be. It would be downright idiotic to alienate that portion of the player base because it is the aspect of the game that feels (to me) to be the most like what Star Wars really is. Not 8 or 16 players beating on a giant creature in a lava cave that may have been from World of Warcraft.

So...the red part isn't inconvenient or annoying, but playing today's totally optional PvP is? What?

Ever play EVE? Ganking in that game is an art form, and there are plenty of consequences. Still plenty of ganking going on in that game, even with all the alliances and politics.

In EVE that is part of the game and expected because it follows the old model. It's a free for all. SWTOR and WoW do not follow this model. It is watered down.

In reference to say PvP servers here or in WoW, it is an inconvenience on the way to leveling up a charcter. It's something that could potentially get in your way as you level up. You will level up and not go backwards. It's just a little bit of time.

I think that people that rally behind PvP is one player against another don't have the full picture of what PvP used to be and can be becasue they are so used to the watered down PvP of WoW ( and games like WoW) and come to expect that model is the only model for PvP. Many of the "hardcore" PvPers (not all) couldn't handle it (or they would be playing games that had it like EVE (and similar games)) and not epeening in what amounts to a sporting event.

Don't you see that you are epeening over what you consider that real pvp is vs. what you call watered down pvp? Doesn't have anything to do with "people can't handle it" it has more to do with "that is a non-sensical pvp model". What you are doing amounts to an old man saying, "in my day soda pop cost a nickel, and they punched you in the mouth when you bought one, and you told them thank you as you walked out the door". Ok old man, relax, we get it. Pvp is not as cool as the game you played 10 years ago.

First off before I say anything, so all the trolls/fanbois/haters dont try and claim I hate this game or whatever.... I am absolutely a fan of the game and Bioware, as well a huge mmo fan playing games such as swg(from beta to close), aion, eq, lotro, mol, aoc, coh, rift, and swtor(from beta/early access to present)... I am also a h8uge fan of SW and have been since I was a kid... that being said:

Im so tired of when someone mentions the game lacks owpvp and sandbox elements, all the fanbois come out and say that "pvp is a minor part of the game",or "did you expect swG 2.0".... SWG was not the only sandbox game nor was it the only game with pvp.... SWTOR lacks owpvp and sandbox elements which is one of the reasons it cant hold peoples attention, mine included.... An mmo without these 2 elements is nothing more than a single player game with co-op options.... Well i can pay $50 for an xbox game and play games like that all day....

I believe when people have unsubscribed and stated that they didnt like the sub model, they really were saying i wouldnt pay $15 a month for this game which lacks content, which brings me to another complaint..

all of you who say there is plenty to do at 50 are speaking purely for yourself, as I am speaking purely for myself.... I have 2 lvl 50 conquerors in full augmented wh gear.... I have nothing to do in this game.... I prefer pvp and after you play the same wz's 1000 xs just to get the gear I have, you get bored.... The answer isnt lvl another alt, y? coz lvling an alt doesnt change the same 4 wz's Ive already done a qudbillion times.... I spend all that time to get that gear and have nothing to do with the gear coz Ive already done those wz's so many times- so 50 is end of game, oh unless you want to run the same fp's/ops just different intensity lvls.... Boring!!!!

I notice all you pvers always whine about pvp doesnt belong in an mmo blah blah, but us pvpers are always trying to make sure there is content for all of us..... Say what you will about SWG.... If you think swg was a crap game then this game is the sewer that swg ended up in.... swg was much more innovative than this game- an in depth crafting system, open worlds, player housing, meaning for pvp, alot of pvp content coupled with pve content.... Pvp and pve were not seperate entities, as well crafted items were better than looted/vendor items... The only thing swtor dominates on is story, which i liked alot, but in swg i didnt need a story, my story was made by me..

now i know u fanbois will jump and say just another bitter swg fan.... wrong again, im playing rift right now, which it too has the elements this game needs, owpvp, in depth crafting, purposeful pvp, at 50 the game starts... at 50 swtor ends...

to act like sandbox is bad or pvp is bad is just insane- some of the most successful games have these elements- in both mmos and console games- oblivion, skyrim, gta series, homefront, call of duty..... and the list goes on.... and the beauty of those games are i only have to pay $50 for the game....

SWTOR is a good game, just a bad mmo... in its current state it is nothing more than a console game that requires a sub fee.... everything in swtor i can do in a console game- like fable, i can play the game with my friends and actually change the enviroment, its open world.... in homefront or gears of war i can play the campaign with friends and then pvp in warzone style maps, no different except no sub fee....

and that is why i believe players said they didnt like sub model- not because they wouldnt pay for a game worth paying for but that this game isnt worth continuing to pay for after a certain point and as the sub numbers show at least 1 million people have already hit that point....

just my 2 cents, which with this community, which lacks any cohesion, means nothing....FLAME AWAY!!!!

Sensible or not. people walked, and they didn't walk simply because the game had a sub. They walked because they had no reason to stay.

A pure themepark game can't hold casual players unless it has a massive population (like WoW)...for that matter neither can a pure sandbox game knock the doors down. A mixture of both is needed for today's market.

They could have probably thrived with a sub IMO if they had more sandbox features.

The game is unfinished, has clunky combat, lacks social features and has little to no repeatable sandboxy content. It was easy to see in Beta where this title was going.

PVP in Eve is optional, you can choose not to undock :P

I'm not even going to start pointing out examples in this thread about how entitled PVPers feel about themselves... As funny as it would be.

There are some legit fears of what EA-lizing will do to SWTOR, but Bioware prolly couldn't have done SWTOR in the first place without EA's money, so the question is moot.

Anything publicly stated is going to be sweetened and whitewashed. After all, when your down 3 runs in the bottom of the ninth with one runner up and three on base you don't talk to the team about how badly the game is going.

Positive spin is a very important market tool.

I think the evidence is self evident. One only needs to look at the product and the actual numbers to see what is going on and why.

Fact. EVE is gaining players.

Fact, GW2 is already looking like it's going to be a huge MMO.

Fact, SWTOR has lost most of it's player base and is somewhere around 200k and that number is going to drop in the next month.

The point is games like EVE and GW2 are what MMO's SHOULD be! SWG Pre-CU was what an MMO should be. At this point part of me wonders if we should even call TOR a game anymore as it's so easy and boring people get fed up with it and leave after a week. F2P is not going to help this wanna know why WoW clones like LoTRO and DDO have done well as F2P? They have a *gasp* game! They have content, they have content that makes you have to group with other players. EVE and GW2? PvP that has you teaming up with friends not clicking on a button so you can join a random pug group.

Do I hate TOR? Yes I do. This game could have been so much more and yet all BioWare did is try and copy WoW a game that set MMO's back 10 years and come out with a sub-par boring MMO that well it's clear that they don't care what happens to it now.

I don't believe the people leaving stated the red part, i think that is EA's mis-interpretation / bad analyst of the situation.

The problem is EA addressing a symptom (player/revenue loss) and not the disease (engaging content). The susbscription is not a big deal when you feel you are getting your money's worth. Only when you see no value in what you are paying for does it become an issue. So the worth of the game (content in both pvp and pve) is what needs to be addressed for these people to return and/or stay. I believe the people who left the game already were saying "I love the game, but it is not WORTH $15 a month subscription due to having finished the content for my playstyle."

I know after 8 months this is how my friends and family feel about SWTOR. I am trying to hang on to see what happens but even rats seem to know when to leave a sinking ship.

Know matter how you feel on the subject, the only way EA is going to listen or take notice is with your pocket book. If you like the game and happy... keep paying. If not, end the subscription and check back when it goes f2p.