I Am All For Pay To Win, Are You?

Raiding doesn't take a lot of time, an hour or 6 a week can be enough. So why, for an hour or 6 a week of raiding, should one first have to grind about 120 hours to reach the level cap and initial gear requirement? That's 20 weeks someone could have used on doing what they like doing best, raiding.

The same can apply to endgame PvP.

If by the time you hit that content, it is no longer of interest (taking PvP considering as to how I as stated do not believe people should buy the latest raid tier gear, considering as to how imo that doesn't make sense) to play those warzones, then those warzones are dodge and of not high enough quality. The grind towards it then is then nothing more than a grind to make up for time in between patches.
Unfortuantely there will always be some players who will want the P2W to make them feel superior in some way... that's nothing new whether its a real money cashshop or simply buying something or trading something in game currently.... but yes P2W for me is a major downer but if those idiots want to do it, then that's up to them, hopefully BW will chuckle and pour the $'s into the content funds.

Whilst in reality the quality of the warzones should be aimed for being at such a level that years after release, they remain interesting to play, in a similar fashion as to how people can still play the same maps over and over in their favorite FPS and RTS games.
PvP in SWTOR was borked from day1... lvl10-lvl49 (lvl 50's in the early days iirc) all in the same Wz with different levels and numbers of skills/abilities, differing levels of things like Expertise on gear, class inblalances and way too many stuns, chokes, slow effects etc to even make it enjoyable.... proper bandings should of been applied to Wz's to make them competitive but then of course when pops were allowed to dwindle so much, just getting in a WZ was a miracle in itself.

The problem is that in current MMO's, the content is only there at endgame.

PvP wise, it makes little sense to aim to play competitive against players with different levels of actual ingame skills, as well as different gear. Rather than player skill you're simply letting an upper hand in statistics do the work. It's like playing poker against someone who by default gets handed 3 aces.
So a quick way up to the endgame level of pvp could yield a lot of interest. - -
For you maybe but I would rather ply my skills throught the process and try to better myself beofre going straight to the big boy league... item/weapons are only part of it.. at some point the player and tactics has to come through.
You wanna deck yourselve up and push an EZ mode thats fine.. but if your not good enough or have the necessary ideas around a quest/ raid/ wz/ Op etc etc.. you will still be found out to be a fail and pushed aside...


Additionally, raiding is where it's at for many players, but the grind toward it is not. 10 years ago, major group content which formed the early form of current raiding used to be available at all levels. The term endgame, was practically non-existing. It was the same as early-game and mid-game for that matter. It was a time in which an MMO had no end. People called it grind because of the exp requirements per level, but quickly forgot that those levels did come with plenty of choice in content.
These days you got levels with no challenging content, a pure grind up to cap, then a grind for gear, before you can start raiding. So why, if all you were ever interested in in MMO's was the challenging content, should players be forced to go through that grind over and over?
Yep I rememeber when there used to be progression points in the leveleing experience, a lower level raid, a challenging group quest that tested you, taught you and maybe even helped to gear you in preparation for the next part of the leveleing curve... some still have that, many dont.
SWTOR, imo, took the easy challenge out of the game in order to make it more accessable to younger players but they forgot about its repeatability value.. 1-49 simply isnt challenging.. especially as you dont need specific gear, you dont need to run anything you dont want to, or like has been a large issue..cant get a group to... flashpoints, H2/H4 simply have no real value in SWTOR and the boredom factor soon sets in running the same rails for every class just so you can get to play out some decent story with VO. If they could incorporate progression points in story.. why did they not consider it necessary for actual PvE until the grindfest that hits you at lvl50... poor ideas, lack of experience and poor management - -make for a game that will struggle to retain its players - - ooh wait how many subs have gone south in the last 6-months??

Publishers can either do two things: start reintroducing challenging content early on ingame; either by a sort of sidekicking system where you get boosted to raid like stats and levels are no longer of any importance; or by simply creating lower level raids. Or by chipping in on their own profit and allowing people quick access to what they actually truly want to be doing in this MMO.

Following your train of thought it's absolutely pointless the leveling system too. What the heck, they expect me to level up a toon?! They should make instant lvl50 server, or even fun servers.

Firstly, I am not a troll and I am not writing this thread to get attention. I am an adult Star Wars fan who has seen Episode IV - VI in the cinema when they were first screened. I bought into the pre-launch hype and own two copies of SWTOR Collector's Edition, mainly due to the promised "exclusive" CE Store where I hoped to spend real money to buy "exclusive" virtual items. I stopped playing LOTRO for SWTOR and still have LOTRO credits in my LOTRO account.

I loved buying vanity items, pets different seasonal horses that are faster and stat and XP boosts in LOTRO and thought SWTOR would be the same, especially the CE store. I found out early in the game that we the CE store concept was only hype, but I gave BW some months to improve on it. I subbed for 6 month because of this and also because I enjoyed SWTOR at the pre-50 levels. I have just unsubbed due to various reasons which I discussed in another thread. However, I plan to pop in after they start the F2P just to have a look at the ingame store to see if there is any P2W items. If they are good enough, I might re-sub.

Specific P2W items I like:
PvP Stat boosts
PvP XP boosts
Exclusive CE armour with stats enhancements
Exclusive CE weapons with stats boosts
Flying mounts
Very fast speeders
Cartel coins
Datacrons which are difficult to get

Does anyone else like P2W items like I do?

No, the leveling system isn't pointless... in a p2p environment. It serves little other purpose than pulling out additional months of subscription rate till you hit endgame. Basically a filler to get extra cash out of you.

As a player? The leveling system is pointless. It's the same as in every other MMO. It's a nice introduction to players new to the genre, but for those amongst us who've been playing MMO's for a long time; whether that be 5+, 10+ or by now even 15+ years doesn't matter. You're not going to get anything new out of the leveling process.

Additionally, the leveling system in current MMO's also is of as important to endgame content as the campaigns are in RTS and FPS games. It holds no value there, except for teaching you basic interface elements.

Sure the story is nice to see.... once. No reason to repeat the exact same story over and over for every alt.

Financially seeing that's something they can easily jump in on. Why give away something for free, if they can charge you 20 bucks for it. Meanwhile we as players can question ourselves, do we enjoy the leveling experience? Or do I just want just the endgame content out of this game and is 20 bucks for a 120 hour grind I save a pretty sweet deal? And unless you make less than 1 buck every 6 hours, that wouldn't be to bad of a deal for example.

Yep I rememeber when there used to be progression points in the leveleing experience, a lower level raid, a challenging group quest that tested you, taught you and maybe even helped to gear you in preparation for the next part of the leveleing curve... some still have that, many dont.