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Tigerbear's Avatar

08.19.2012 , 08:50 PM | #1
Ok, I overheard someone in fleet talking about shield and absorb over 50% not making any difference. Then I hear other people saying that it does make a difference.

What's the deal?

I'll make it simple. If I have 54.67% absorption, am I absorbing 54.67% of the damage? And if I have 52.01% shield chance. Am I going to shield 52.01% of the time when attacked? Or am I simply over geared in these two stats because nobody can exceed 50%?

And what is the ideal stat scenario? 20% D, 50% Sh, 50% Ab?
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Kitru's Avatar

08.19.2012 , 10:12 PM | #2
I have no idea what those people on the fleet meant by it, but the only logical interpretation I could come up with is that, beyond the listed thresholds, the amounts do nothing. This simply isn't true. If you have a higher than 50% shield chance or higher than 50% absorb rating, you will shield that often (assuming you're appropriately counting the melee/ranged attacks that you can actually shield rather than paying attention to all attacks and basing values off of those) and absorb for the given amounts on those attacks you shield.

This, of course, assumes that the people you're talking to knew what they were talking about. It's quite possible they misconstrued the diminishing returns softcaps as maximum values for the attribute rather than contributing values from each individual rating, which seems just as likely.

Assuming they knew what they were talking about and that they believed they were telling the truth, the only possible explanation I can come up with is that they believed that there was negligible effective value to stacking abs or shield above the 50% threshold. The only possible explanation I can see for this is that the people saying such believe in stacking Endurance rather than mitigation and see the 50% mark as the point wherein you should get your mitigation stats before dumping everything else into Endurance (the logic behind this is sound in certain lights but no more valid than the mitigation stacking arguments).
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_gideon's Avatar

08.20.2012 , 02:37 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Tigerbear View Post
I'll make it simple. If I have 54.67% absorption, am I absorbing 54.67% of the damage? And if I have 52.01% shield chance. Am I going to shield 52.01% of the time when attacked?
Yes. 54.67% of the hit is absorbed if you shield. 52.01% of attacks that don't get defended will get shielded.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tigerbear View Post
And what is the ideal stat scenario? 20% D, 50% Sh, 50% Ab?
Different for each class. That looks roughly like a vanguard's distribution. There are different approaches but my vanguard would look more like 15/60/60 with all buffs.

CitizenFry's Avatar

08.20.2012 , 03:45 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I agree with what Kitru said.
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Tigerbear's Avatar

08.20.2012 , 10:24 PM | #5
Thank you all for the comments. I appreciate it.
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SamuelAU's Avatar

08.29.2012 , 05:13 AM | #6
Which class do you play?

Shadow / Assassin tanks can afford to stack up on absorb rating a lot more than shield rating because of your Kinetic Ward / Dark Ward which boosts your shield rating.

Just a side note.

theblaznee's Avatar

08.29.2012 , 06:07 AM | #7
Now I'm no math genius, but you should be able to calculate your way out of it..

The only thing I'm uncertain off is when armor mitigation kicks in..

Defense rating is the chance to dodge ANY attack. At some point the points you put into this is worth less and less.. So early on 50 points might be 5%, but later on another 50 points would only net you 0.2%.. Diminishing returns.
In my view that means that defense is always a good stat and should be aimed as close to dimishing returns as possible..
After defense the attack is either shieldable or non-shieldable.. Non shieldable the goes to your hitpoint pool.
If it's shieldable it has the shield chance to be absorbed and is then absorbed the amount specified.

With easy numbers like 50% and 50% and a hit worth 2000 damage.. 50% of the time you will only get hit by 1000 damage. Now if this was the point at which endurance gets better we can do the same calculation.

Say you have to choose between absorb or endurance against that same attack. 30 absorb would give you 2% absorb and 30 endurance would give you 300hp.
2% of 2000 is 80.. So half the time you would get hit for 920 hitpoints instead of getting having 300hp larger pool. That sounds like it's in favor of endurance, but what if that 2000 hit comes every 5 seconds the 300hp looks worse and worse..

Let's say you sacrifice a lot of absorb and end up with 25% absorb but is then sporting an epeen enhancing hp pool with 3000 extra hp from endurance mods. The same tiny hit would then hit you for 1500, catching up to your hp pool in 6 attacks.. Only 1 person like this, and that's your healer.
Now you run unto a nice big hit of 10000. Now the difference between 25 and 50% absorb turns into 2500hp,. Now your healer doesn't like you!!. He would much rather see you get a 5k hit than a 7.5k hit.

Now comes this big fact that makes it even more complex to make an informed decision.. Absorb only works "shield %" of the time, whereas Endurance works ALL the time.. Also, shield/absorb also only works against certain attacks.. Now most of the current endgame contains attacks that are shieldable, so the last fact should only worry you if you play a lot of pvp..

Basically in a perfect world you would carry a high shield/absorb set for fights with lots of attacks incoming, and a high endurance one for a fight with few large hits or dot heavy fights which bypass shield/absorb completely.

Defense stays good..

Also, keep an eye on the types of cooldowns and abilities you have.. Do you boost defense, then that is less important to carry in your gear, and so on.. Do you boost absorb then shield chance is much more important than absorb as a boost to absorb is useless if shield chance is low.. Cooldowns are used for the hard times in a fight, so you need your gear to compliment your cooldowns.

TL,DR There's no clear cut way of ever saying that one tank stat is better than the other.
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alifaraaz's Avatar

08.29.2012 , 06:28 AM | #8
Like others said, depending on your class. If you're a PT or Vanguard you can push Shield and Absorb quite a bit higher. Asassins, again you can push it higher but Im not sure how valuable it'll be.

For a Jugg, again it can go higher, but generally speaking it would be better to stack Defense beyond the 50/50 Shield/Absorb level. It's not that you can go over 50%, its just that it's overall more valuable to stack defense.

You should also take into account that it's a two roll system. First roll is Hit Miss Defend, second roll is Crit, Shield, with Absorb always absorbing the given amount if the attack is shielded. Meaning, as you stack more Defense, your overall mitigation goes higher but your Shield/Absorb technically loses value.

Again this is just my opinion, but taking current Augmented Campaign gear as BiS with a few adjustments you should be aiming for like:

30-32% Defense
50% Shield
50% Absorb

Assassin: Not sure about this one

17-20% Defense
50-55% Shield
55-60% Absorb

Hope that helps 8-)

But in summary, those guys on fleet were pretty much wrong. It sort of applies true to Juggs, but even then not really. Pre 1.2 it was more a case of Hit 50/50 and then stack tons of defense. But with augments and Campaign gear its very possible to push them stats a fair bit higher.
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parmie's Avatar

08.29.2012 , 06:38 AM | #9
My understanding was that the thresholds for shield and absorption are 50% and defence 25%. A exceeding a threshold doesn't mean it's capped at 50% but you start to get a diminishing rate of return on the additional % from more points. It should therefore make sense to balance your gear to those 3 thresholds.

Kitru's Avatar

08.29.2012 , 12:21 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by theblaznee View Post
The only thing I'm uncertain off is when armor mitigation kicks in..
Damage Reduction (generally accomplished via armor but given through talents and a slew of other things) is factored in last, the difference of which (whether K/E or I/E) is determined by the kind of damage dealt by the attack.

Defense rating is the chance to dodge ANY attack.
You're wrong. Defense rating only applies to your defense chance, which only applies to melee/ranged (re: white damage) attacks. Your resistance chance (re: defense chance that applies to Force/Tech attacks, also known as "yellow damage") is completely unaffected by any of your stats and can only be increased by powers, talents, or set bonuses, and, even then, is generally increased by only small amounts (VGs and Shads can expect to see 2% resist chance; Guards don't get any).

After defense the attack is either shieldable or non-shieldable.
Just like with Defense chance, the difference in shieldability is based on the type of attack: melee/ranged (re: white damage) attacks can be shielded while Force/Tech (re: yellow damage) attacks cannot. It isn't some arbitrary determination that is hard to acknowledge.

Something to keep in mind for PvP (since NPCs cannot crit) is that the crit chance and shield chance use the same percentage roll to determine whichever happens and crit takes priority over shield. For example, if you have a 50% shield chance and your opponent has a 20% crit chance, they're both standard. As soon as the combined crit + shield chance is greater than 100% however (say, 60% crit chance and 50% shield chance), the crit chance pushes remaining shield chance off (60% crit and 50% shield end up being a 60% crit chance and a 40% shield chance).

TL,DR There's no clear cut way of ever saying that one tank stat is better than the other.
The best advice I can give for tank stats is to ensure that your gearing strategy matches your healers' style of healing. Both mitigation and Endurance stacking gear strategies (as well as a whole spectrum of gearing strategies between the two) have been demonstrated to be effective at clearing all of the content in the game in roughly equal measure. Some healers prefer to constantly keep the tank topped off; these healers operate best with high mitigation stacked tanks. Some healers prefer to minimize overheal by keeping their tanks stay at ~90%; these healers operate best with high Endurance stacked tanks. Some healers, from a psychological perspective, simply prefer to deal with higher hp pools. If you're really interested in optimizing yourself, ask your healer(s) whether they'd like to see you with more hp or more mitigation (if you're up for it, tweak your gear a bit one way or the other and ask them whether it was better before or after).
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