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No PvP specific stat, here's why

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
No PvP specific stat, here's why

Ruan's Avatar


Ruan
12.19.2011 , 11:42 AM | #1
Preface: I wrote this post over two years ago with no knowledge of SWTOR's PvP system. Consider this an epic thread necro if you want but the issue of a PvP stat is important and needs to be examined.

I was privileged to participate in SWTOR's beta test since July 2011. SWTOR as it stands does include a PvP stat called "expertise" which, while less impactfull than WoW's resilience, is still a significant factor in PvP.

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Implementing a PvP-specific stat, i.e. "resilience" is what dealt a death blow to fun PvP in World of Warcraft. How did it do this?

PvP gear segregated the WoW population into those who have the best PvP gear and those who do not.

Before the implementation of PvP "resilience" gear, anyone could participate using whatever gear they had earned, via raids, crafting, quests or PvP. Everyone's life expectancy was balanced around the use of this sort of gear. The playing field was relatively level.

The WoW devs further exacerbated the system by placing arbitrary barriers on the acquisition of the best PvP gear which include defeating those who have already earned said gear; a feat which is by no means impossible but places a huge statistical and psychological barrier on prospective PvP'ers. The devs also began balancing PvP around the assumption of a certain amount of resilience, below which player survivability falls to abyssal levels.

These are two conversations I see commonly occurring in World of Warcraft:

Scenario 1:

Bob: "[Guild] Hey John, want to queue up for some battlegrounds?"
John: "[Guild] No thanks, my PvP gear sucks and I just get two-shot."


John, who may be a good player, does not enjoy PvP because he has not acquired enough PvP gear, dies quickly and finds PvP a frustrating experience.

Scenario 2:

Joe: "[Trade] Looking for someone to join our arena team."
John: "[To: Joe] Can I join? I consider myself a good PvP'er."
Joe: "[To: John] Sorry, you don't have enough resilience so no matter how skilled you are you'll be a liability to our team."


Again, John may be an excellent player, however Joe refuses to PvP with him because he knows that John is at a purely mathematical disadvantage, and other teams will rightfully focus attacks on john for the easy kill.


Players should never be so discouraged from playing together due to a gear discrepancy.

Using PvP as a source of gear is fine, and encouraged. Exceptional players deserve to be rewarded for success in any area of gameplay, however as soon as that gear is so heavily optimized for PvP as to become a prerequisite for participation, the player community is sundered. PvP participation will decline as an increasingly small clique of players occupies the top and shut out all others. The playing field becomes increasingly slanted.

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TLR MMORPGs already have enough baseline disparities without adding "expertise" on top. Players should be able to compete in any aspect of the game using gear obtained in any aspect of the game, leaving their performance more in the hands of the player rather than a specific stat.
Social features; cantinas, player housing, guild cities, these are what SWG did right.
PvP specific gear is the best way to kill PvP by segregating your player base.

nanohana's Avatar


nanohana
12.19.2011 , 11:44 AM | #2
not sure if srs
гласность, перестройка.

JustinxDuff's Avatar


JustinxDuff
12.19.2011 , 11:49 AM | #3
I don't like PvE and will probably never to Ops instances. If I spend all my time pvping then I deserve a pvp stat...this way some schmuck who has been in end game raids for months can't come in and decimate me in pvp with their end game gear.
Bluntasaurus - Gunslinger - Ewoks Anonyous
Bluntskii - Sentinel - Ewoks Anonymous
Prophecy of the Five
Push the envelope, watch it bend

Pernt's Avatar


Pernt
12.19.2011 , 11:49 AM | #4
If you have no pvp stat, then pvp gear has to be equal to the top tier raid gear or you will have massive rage that weekend warrior types can come in and roflstomp full time pvp'ers. PvP gear, no PvP gear, either way you run into problems. I would argue however, that the PvP gear in this game is easy enough to get that no one should be complaining. I say let it stay, let the pvp'ers feel like they get something special that sets them appart in their chosen form of game play, even if it is by a small ammount, and easily obtainable.

gramirez's Avatar


gramirez
12.19.2011 , 11:51 AM | #5
I wish there was some way to make everything balance but without the PVP stat, Raiders would own in PVE and PVP. I dont have time to dedicate to raids and plus I love PVP much more so until there is a better solution there definitely has to be a PVP stat

Ruan's Avatar


Ruan
12.19.2011 , 11:53 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Pernt View Post
If you have no pvp stat, then pvp gear has to be equal to the top tier raid gear or you will have massive rage that weekend warrior types can come in and roflstomp full time pvp'ers. PvP gear, no PvP gear, either way you run into problems. I would argue however, that the PvP gear in this game is easy enough to get that no one should be complaining. I say let it stay, let the pvp'ers feel like they get something special that sets them appart in their chosen form of game play, even if it is by a small ammount, and easily obtainable.
Why would the raiders ROFLstomp anyone? If the players who prefer PvP have equally good gear obtained through PvP, they should still win because they're more experienced PvP players right?

Quote: Originally Posted by gramirez View Post
I wish there was some way to make everything balance but without the PVP stat, Raiders would own in PVE and PVP. I dont have time to dedicate to raids and plus I love PVP much more so until there is a better solution there definitely has to be a PVP stat
Wouldn't you be happier if you could get equally good gear by winning at PvP?
Social features; cantinas, player housing, guild cities, these are what SWG did right.
PvP specific gear is the best way to kill PvP by segregating your player base.

Kesrik's Avatar


Kesrik
12.19.2011 , 12:11 PM | #7
This is like saying people should be able to PvE with PvP gear. That just doesn't work. The top end PvE guilds end up doing PvP just so they have a gear edge in PvE (ie, if you do both, you gear up twice as fast). Eventually, the rest of the player base feels like they have to do both at the same time in order to gear up competitively.

What's worse than segregating the community? Forcing players to PvE just so they can gear up faster for PvP, and vice versa. Since you brought up WoW, I'll give you an example. PvE items being superior in PvP in WoW was probably the worst thing ever. Could you still compete if you didn't PvE? Sure, but people that did PvE had a huge advantage over you. If anything, I would suggest making the PvP stat in TOR even more essential, thus eliminating any possibility of PvE gear being used in high end PvP.
Aitchkay
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Ahhmyface's Avatar


Ahhmyface
12.19.2011 , 12:12 PM | #8
Yep, I absolutely, 100% agree.

And there is a flip side too.


1: Hey Fred, want to come raid?
2: Sorry, I only have been PvPing, I will get roflstomped.

I personally enjoy systems where the two are complementary. EG. Daoc You pve to max out one power structure, and you pvp to max out another. Your pvp experience helps your pve and vice versa.
Ahhmyface- 1400 Madness Assassin
[The Bastion][/B]

skwrl's Avatar


skwrl
12.19.2011 , 12:21 PM | #9
You get rewarded with gear for the particular activity you have spent time doing. It is very simple.

No, someone who spends a majority of their time raiding should not have the same gear as someone who has dedicated their time PvPing, or vice versa.

Not to mention, people VASTLY exaggerate the effect of Expertise. It can increase your damage by 10%. That is hardly game breaking, and "John" isn't going to get roflstomped because of it.

PvPing without Expertise gear doesn't ruin the experience.

skwrl's Avatar


skwrl
12.19.2011 , 12:22 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Ahhmyface View Post
Yep, I absolutely, 100% agree.

And there is a flip side too.


1: Hey Fred, want to come raid?
2: Sorry, I only have been PvPing, I will get roflstomped.

I personally enjoy systems where the two are complementary. EG. Daoc You pve to max out one power structure, and you pvp to max out another. Your pvp experience helps your pve and vice versa.
You just supported the fact that you should have to do both PvE and PvP to "max out". Well in this case, the goal is to "max out" your gear.