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Gear: Pvp Vs Pve


ImmortalAlien's Avatar


ImmortalAlien
08.02.2012 , 05:57 PM | #11
I'd rather bring full Columi guys rather than full Battlemaster regardless of stats for the simple reason that the Columi guy is experienced in PVE. The guy in full Battlemaster may have no idea how to clear endgame trash or how the boss fights work. Bioware made it clear in Denova that you have to have experience with raiding and knowledge of the boss fights to clear that content and most likely future content as well.

Lightning_'s Avatar


Lightning_
08.03.2012 , 01:13 AM | #12
PvP gear is good for starting PvE just because HM FP grind is just very long. Those who don't like it (like me) can gear up for PvE by getting full BM set plus War Hero relics, then diving right into EV/KP HM for Rakata. Tionese is completely useless, and Columi is also skippable (although you will still get it in EV/KP HM so may just as well use).
Before 1.3 it was the only sensible way to gear up IMO. Now with the addition of Group Finder and better rewards you can just as well do HM FPs, but the PvP way still works.

It does not work backwards (the best PvE gear is worse than Recruit in PvP), but that's why they give free Recruit set, so all in all quite fair. If they make PvP gear useless in PvE, they need to give free Tionese set or smth like that to even up.

Codek's Avatar


Codek
08.03.2012 , 08:02 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Lightning_ View Post
It does not work backwards (the best PvE gear is worse than Recruit in PvP), but that's why they give free Recruit set, so all in all quite fair. If they make PvP gear useless in PvE, they need to give free Tionese set or smth like that to even up.
I really like to know how you can claim this one. If I have full Campaign and BH gear and PvP against someone in recruit gear... They are going to kick my ***?

The damage reduction from the set is 15.40% at the loss of 25% of the total HP (500 endurance x 10 = 5000HP) so that's a handicap right there.

The bonus damage from the set is 18.20% at the cost of 500 of your primary stat (100 bonus damage and 3% crit), 100 surge (5%) , 50 crit (1%) and 250 power (57.5 bonus damage). Total loss of 157.5 bonus damage, 4% crit, and 5% surge....plus a set bonus. Assuming you started at around 1000 bonus damage from Campaign gear, the bonus damage loss alone is 15.75% damage. That set bonus could also be a huge determent depending on what class you are playing.

I don't see any reason why you would make the assumption that high end PvE gear would be absolutely worthless for PvP if your only choice was the recruit set. It works just as well as WH gear in EV/KP (mediocre).

Either way, your going to get destroyed by BM/WH players...
~Codek

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
08.03.2012 , 11:27 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Lightning_ View Post
...

It does not work backwards (the best PvE gear is worse than Recruit in PvP), but that's why they give free Recruit set, so all in all quite fair.

...
I asked about this on the PvP forums and didn't get an adequate answer.

Are you claiming this because you know for sure? Or you just think so?

I've been thinking about getting into PvP. When I swap my PvE gear for recruit I lose 35% of my health and 25% of my dps. My instinct is to keep my PvE gear and grind Battlemaster and don't even bother with Recruit. I've had 3 people disagree with me, but nobody has given any concrete explanation.

Can you?

Kawiki's Avatar


Kawiki
08.03.2012 , 12:14 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by JeffKretz View Post
I asked about this on the PvP forums and didn't get an adequate answer.

Are you claiming this because you know for sure? Or you just think so?

I've been thinking about getting into PvP. When I swap my PvE gear for recruit I lose 35% of my health and 25% of my dps. My instinct is to keep my PvE gear and grind Battlemaster and don't even bother with Recruit. I've had 3 people disagree with me, but nobody has given any concrete explanation.

Can you?
Full Campaign gear is mathmatically better then the recruit set in PvP in 1v1 situation. As soon as it becomes 1v2 (or worse) Campaign starts to fall behind by rather large amount. As PvP is very rarely 1v1 you are almost always better off going with the recruit set.

Caveat: Once you get to 1000 to 1100 expertise swapping out PvP gear for Campaign/BH gear is beneficial as long as your expertise stays above 1000.

For Pve I use this:

Campaing/Rakata/BH > War Hero > BattleMaster = Columi > Tionese > Recruit

Satedbuffalo's Avatar


Satedbuffalo
08.03.2012 , 12:15 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by ImmortalAlien View Post
I'd rather bring full Columi guys rather than full Battlemaster regardless of stats for the simple reason that the Columi guy is experienced in PVE. The guy in full Battlemaster may have no idea how to clear endgame trash or how the boss fights work. Bioware made it clear in Denova that you have to have experience with raiding and knowledge of the boss fights to clear that content and most likely future content as well.
I don't understand this at all. 100% of my alts post-1.2 came into their first operations in recruit or battlemaster. That doesn't mean I'm inexperienced at PvE content.

Codek's Avatar


Codek
08.03.2012 , 12:16 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Kawiki View Post
Full Campaign gear is mathmatically better then the recruit set in PvP in 1v1 situation. As soon as it becomes 1v2 (or worse) Campaign starts to fall behind by rather large amount. As PvP is very rarely 1v1 you are almost always better off going with the recruit set.

Caveat: Once you get to 1000 to 1100 expertise swapping out PvP gear for Campaign/BH gear is beneficial as long as your expertise stays above 1000.

For Pve I use this:

Campaing/Rakata/BH > War Hero > BattleMaster = Columi > Tionese > Recruit
Can you go into more details on why expertise would be more beneficial for 1v2 over 1v1? It's the same bonus and same damage going in and out so I don't quiet follow where the change occurs.

Or at least link a source that could explain it?
~Codek

Aetou's Avatar


Aetou
08.03.2012 , 12:35 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Codek View Post
Can you go into more details on why expertise would be more beneficial for 1v2 over 1v1? It's the same bonus and same damage going in and out so I don't quiet follow where the change occurs.

Or at least link a source that could explain it?
Mitigation & Healing. If you're not being healed then the situation being 1v2 doesn't really change anything but if you are then the " extra HP = extra damage reduction " balance is quickly annihilated. The fact that you are taking much bigger hits means that (1) the enemy team will focus you more because they like big numbers and (2) My heals on you are going to be 20% less effective than my heals on other people. I'd rather heal somebody in Recruit gear than somebody in Rakata gear because the guy in PVE gear will go down far quicker than I can heal - often even in only 1 on 1 situations. You buy 1 or 2 extra hits but pay the price of being impossible to keep up in the long term.

Now, if you are ranged DPS and can hide at the back and avoid getting focused then the situation isn't quite so bad. Similarly, if you are a tank then the larger HP will often be more useful than the increased mitigation as long as you don't mind effectively being ablative armor for a healer and dying regularly (CC and taunts are unaffected by gear.) For anyone who is going to actually be directly attacked, though, Recruit gear is better.

Codek's Avatar


Codek
08.03.2012 , 12:54 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Aetou View Post
Mitigation & Healing. If you're not being healed then the situation being 1v2 doesn't really change anything but if you are then the " extra HP = extra damage reduction " balance is quickly annihilated. The fact that you are taking much bigger hits means that (1) the enemy team will focus you more because they like big numbers and (2) My heals on you are going to be 20% less effective than my heals on other people. I'd rather heal somebody in Recruit gear than somebody in Rakata gear because the guy in PVE gear will go down far quicker than I can heal - often even in only 1 on 1 situations. You buy 1 or 2 extra hits but pay the price of being impossible to keep up in the long term.

Now, if you are ranged DPS and can hide at the back and avoid getting focused then the situation isn't quite so bad. Similarly, if you are a tank then the larger HP will often be more useful than the increased mitigation as long as you don't mind effectively being ablative armor for a healer and dying regularly (CC and taunts are unaffected by gear.) For anyone who is going to actually be directly attacked, though, Recruit gear is better.
Valid point, and I understand where that can help.

But I still hesitate to consider that it is enough to deem recruit gear greater then any PvE gear for starting off in.

As a healer, I personally look at my fellow team make-up and choose who I think can help the team the most and set them as my top priority for healing. Both recruit gear and PvE gear are very low on this list so unless everyone else in my range to heal is all set, that healing is imo wasted anyways (God forbid the entire team is made up of this...).
~Codek

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
08.03.2012 , 01:04 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Aetou View Post
Mitigation & Healing. If you're not being healed then the situation being 1v2 doesn't really change anything but if you are then the " extra HP = extra damage reduction " balance is quickly annihilated. The fact that you are taking much bigger hits means that (1) the enemy team will focus you more because they like big numbers and (2) My heals on you are going to be 20% less effective than my heals on other people. I'd rather heal somebody in Recruit gear than somebody in Rakata gear because the guy in PVE gear will go down far quicker than I can heal - often even in only 1 on 1 situations. You buy 1 or 2 extra hits but pay the price of being impossible to keep up in the long term.

Now, if you are ranged DPS and can hide at the back and avoid getting focused then the situation isn't quite so bad. Similarly, if you are a tank then the larger HP will often be more useful than the increased mitigation as long as you don't mind effectively being ablative armor for a healer and dying regularly (CC and taunts are unaffected by gear.) For anyone who is going to actually be directly attacked, though, Recruit gear is better.
Hmm. Interesting. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. I get two vastly different results depending on enemy dps vs friendly heals.

My current PvE gear gets me 20k hp and 4853 armor for a total of 31% damage reduction.
My Recruit gear gets me 13k hp and 4332 armor for 28% damage reduction + 15% pvp damage reduction

Let's say I'm being focused by 2 people, each doing 1000 dps and being healed by a third for 1000 hps.

2000 dps - 31% damage reduction = 1380 dps - 1000 hps = 380 dps
20,000k / 380dps = 52 seconds to die

2000 dps - 43% damage reduction = 1140 dps - 1100 hps (10% expertise healing boost) = 40 dps
13,000k / 40dps = 325 seconds to die

If we add a third 1000 dps focusing fire, it looks like this:
3000 dps - 31% = 2070 dps - 1000 hps = 1070 dps
20,000 / 1070 = 19 seconds to die

3000 dps - 43% damage reduction = 1710 dps - 1100 hps = 610 dps
13,000 / 610 = 21 seconds to die

Correct me if my math is off here, but it seems that the more dps I'm taking (compared to healing) the less effective my Recruit gear will be relative to my PvE gear.