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Same gender relationships clarifications?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender relationships clarifications?
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NRVNQSR's Avatar


NRVNQSR
07.27.2012 , 04:38 AM | #511
Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
Ideally I'd like to see some bisexual and some exclusively homosexual companions... Sadly, I think they'll take the all bisexual route.
The guild summit speaker quite clearly says "We will not simply make the same companions available to both genders, that's not good writing"

Zandilar's Avatar


Zandilar
07.27.2012 , 05:44 AM | #512
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
I think that could be quite believable if it fits someone's backstory and they only do it for one character. If it's written well.
I agree with you, which is why I didn't say they shouldn't do it at all, just that they shouldn't do it with all of them...

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With respect, Zandilar, I wonder if this is more pessimism than anything that's making you say this.

Personally I don't think this'll be the case. The primary thing that was touted at the Summit (and I believe it was true) is that they're approaching SGRAs from a position of 'good writing'. Now that's as subjective as all hell but I don't think that the team that refuses to go the hero-sexual route is going to go het-and-bi-but-not-gay route. Those two things don't fit.
Sadly, I am a pessimist. I don't see PCsexual as the same as het-and-bi-but-not-gay. If the bi characters are really bi and well written, then they can fill the niche for those of us who want SGRAs, while still serving as OGRAs. It means overall less characters are needed. When you start adding exclusively same sex attracted characters to the game, you start exponentially increasing the numbers. They might be able to get away with making some of the superfluous male companions SGRAable, however, they would definitely need to add new female LIs because all existing female characters (with the exception of SCORPIO) are OGRA LIs.

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I will confess two things: Firstly, that I haven't seen complaining of this nature. Secondly, that I avoid reviews, fan-rants and forums dedicated to the feedback of games like ME3 specifically so that I don't see whining of this kind.
I am sure you only stick to this thread on this forum too. Because General is about as nice and positive as the BSN ME3 forums. Believe me, if they make a new attractive female LI SGRA only, there are going to be players who will want her available to their male characters, and they will not be backwards in coming forwards about it (nor will they be particularly polite about it). (Women don't seem to be as bad on this, for some reason... I personally suspect that's because many women (straight or not) are fans of m/m slash stuff.)

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I disagree. I think that depends on the person. I don't consider it to be whining when I say I'd like my JK to end up dating Kira, and that I was greatly disappointed to find out this wasn't possible. The reason I don't think it's whining is because currently we have no alternatives to making such statements. I don't begrudge heterosexual NPCs, not at all. Morrigan won't get it on with female Wardens and I'm fine with that. But in DAO - and DA2 - there are alternatives. There are NPCs who will dig the PC. In SWTOR there's not.
I don't think it's whining either (and that was probably the wrong word for me to use in the first place). And, what's more, I mostly agree with you. This was kind of the point I was trying to make.

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If there were it would be a totally different matter. I don't see this situation as being hypocritical in the least because we have, as pro-SGRA players, been backed into a corner and told "NO."

To be clear I don't think that was BW:A's intention. But that's still what happened. So now we can only match our foiled expectations that a Bioware game would be LGBT-friendly to the companions that are currently in the game.
What happens if, when they add SGRAs to the game, the female ones are all new? Will that stop people from being disappointed they don't get their Kira or Mako or Watcher 2? No, it won't. Will it stop people from asking for them? No, probably not.
Zandilar, an Australian, IN SPAAAAAAAACCCCEEEEE!!
Too many characters, most of them Chiss.

MusedMoose's Avatar


MusedMoose
07.27.2012 , 06:28 AM | #513
Quote: Originally Posted by NRVNQSR View Post
The guild summit speaker quite clearly says "We will not simply make the same companions available to both genders, that's not good writing"
That's incorrect. The actual quote is "We were not willing to go in and just change all the dialogue to work for the other gender. That is not writing. That is not good storytelling."

And if you think about it, it would make no sense for BioWare to declare a companion off-limits to SGRs if they're an OGR option. That would mean there were no SGRs available for female PCs, as every single female companion is an OGR option. Except SCORPIO, but she's a droid.

This does, of course, assume SGRs will be with current companions, not new ones. But I'm holding fast to that assumption until BioWare says otherwise.

wainot-keel's Avatar


wainot-keel
07.27.2012 , 07:42 AM | #514
Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
Ideally I'd like to see some bisexual and some exclusively homosexual companions... Sadly, I think they'll take the all bisexual route.
They are not going for the "all bisexual" route.
As far as I'm concerned, BW never did. DA2 (best game in this regard ) had all LIs available to both genders, only 1 was openly bi. The others, up to the player to stamp a label on their foreheads (or not)


Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
(If they make some exclusively homosexual, there will invariably be some players who will whine and cry that they're not available to their opposite sex PC - cf Samantha Traynor from ME3. Oddly enough, I haven't seen any girls whining over Steve Cortez....)

(By the way, some people might point out the hypocrisy of the above statement - don't we LGB people whine and cry about heterosexual characters we'd like our same sex attracted PCs to be involved with? Well, yes we do. This is a double standard, but one of those double standards that are necessary (at this point in history anyway, I long for the day when it is no longer needed) - heterosexual characters are a dime a dozen, but LGB characters are few and far between (far far far under-represented when compared to RL). That is as far as I'm going to go, lest this post get deleted for dealing with RL stuff.)
First, I kinda resent the wording of "cry" and "whine" ( which are insulting) since you're basically implying that you hold yourself above them and consider those complaints and "wants" as an irrational child's whim disregarding them from the get go.

Second, what's the deal with "exclusive" content in a game ? What's so great about it ? I never understood that.
A game is supposed to bring entertaintment to a lot of people. The more people can enjoy the content the better. More options for everybody, better. IMO, of course.

stuffystuffs's Avatar


stuffystuffs
07.27.2012 , 09:47 AM | #515
Quote: Originally Posted by wainot-keel View Post
Second, what's the deal with "exclusive" content in a game ? What's so great about it ? I never understood that.
A game is supposed to bring entertaintment to a lot of people. The more people can enjoy the content the better. More options for everybody, better. IMO, of course.
Agreed.

They can do LGBT characters that are non-romanceable and also provide "herosexual" LIs so I can do a romance story arc with the person I want to for my PC. If you are playing a heterosexual PC, you typically have this privilege (ME3 being the only exception, but there were so many heterosexual romances that I don't think most people cared about romancing two side characters added in the last game).

I look at this from a "role-playing" perspective...I'd like to have as many RP options as possible to increase the chance that I can play through the story with my character in the way that I want to in order to maximize my enjoyment of the often painful leveling experience. It seems Zandilar is looking at it with "representation" in mind. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive though...again, non-romance companions can provide representation.

I also don't see them ever doing romances with companions that are SGRA exclusive in TOR.
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KidRaid's Avatar


KidRaid
07.27.2012 , 09:53 AM | #516
Quote: Originally Posted by wainot-keel View Post
They are not going for the "all bisexual" route.
As far as I'm concerned, BW never did. DA2 (best game in this regard ) had all LIs available to both genders, only 1 was openly bi. The others, up to the player to stamp a label on their foreheads (or not)
Never thought of that but you made me realise that they could actually make them (via the conversation) be Gay when the player is of the same sex and decides to choose the [flirt] options and straight when the PC is opposite character. After all it does not matter that your Mako is darker skinned than mine ( via companion customisation) why should it matter that mine be straight and yours gay?

This would not prevent some (Kaliyo ?) to be bi as their story already suggests it.

On a side note some mentionned ME (1 2 3) about SGR. One thing that I liked in that serie is the way Jack actually acknowledge the advances of the female shepard and turns her down. I do not mean that shepard liked to be turned down but I thought that it was good writing to actually deal with the situation as adults would.

P.S.: In some post it seems ( to me) implied that wanting SGR is linked with being GLB as a player. To me it is not. It has to do with the charaters I play not who I am. I am a male and it does not prevent me from playing female characters. I am straight why would that mean that I am not interested in playing charaters that are GLB and therfore wanting the SGR?
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Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
07.27.2012 , 10:35 AM | #517
Quote: Originally Posted by wainot-keel View Post
First, I kinda resent the wording of "cry" and "whine" ( which are insulting) since you're basically implying that you hold yourself above them and consider those complaints and "wants" as an irrational child's whim disregarding them from the get go.
Whilst I do see your point I think perhaps you're seeing insult where it's not intended (though, of course, I can't speak for Zandilar and might be wrong).

Quote: Originally Posted by wainot-keel View Post
Second, what's the deal with "exclusive" content in a game ? What's so great about it ? I never understood that.
A game is supposed to bring entertaintment to a lot of people. The more people can enjoy the content the better. More options for everybody, better. IMO, of course.
I've no issue with exclusive content and yet I seem to be in the minority of players who actually enjoyed the wide options of DA2. In a game as big as an MMO I can see the possibility of exclusive content and plenty of options for everyone.

The 'deal' with exclusive content, though, is that there's this belief (which in my mind is slightly misplaced) that a character can't be straight for one player, gay for another and bi for a third and still maintain 'believability'. The only three ways to maintain believability in the face of this belief are, of course: 1) to make some people miss out; 2) to include a buttload of exclusive characters of many types; or 3) both.

I personally don't hold with it. The rules for making a character believable in the interactive, private world of PC-to-NPC relationships is by necessity different to the rules for making a believable character in a non-interactive story. That's why erotic fanfic occurs. It's the process of making a non-interactive story into an interactive experience. Sure, there's some terrible fanfic out there but there's some extremely good stuff as well; one could see the character options in, say, DA2 as being the midpoint between the two.

It's no more or less believable to say Fenris is straight than it is to say he's gay or bi, or that Kira is straight, or lesbian, or bi. They can legitimately be whichever is appropriate to the PC, and this can be done well. It's the Choose Your Own Adventure of relationships. See, I know what they said at the Summit and I disagree with it. 'That's not writing; that's not good storytelling'. It can be bad storytelling but it can also be good depending on the quality of the writing and (an important factor the writers have no control over) the willingness of the player to let themselves be absorbed into the story*. To summarily dismiss the option is their choice, of course; it's their game and in the end we can only offer our suggestions. But I think it's vastly oversimplifying the matter.

* = By this I mean, simply, that it doesn't matter how good a writer you are or the approach you take if the reader/player has either no capacity or no willingness to suspend disbelief. Some people are tremendously picky and with the audience as wide as it is for this game there will always be some people who are 'disappointed' even if only because they don't want relationships in the game at all.
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HellbirdIV's Avatar


HellbirdIV
07.27.2012 , 10:35 AM | #518
Quote: Originally Posted by KidRaid View Post
P.S.: In some post it seems ( to me) implied that wanting SGR is linked with being GLB as a player.
Though I'm straight I associate openly with LGBT people so the politics of gay rights are a big deal to me personally, but I have to agree with your point: At the end of the day, I want my characters to be able to be gay because that's part of their character.

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
07.27.2012 , 12:51 PM | #519
Quote: Originally Posted by KidRaid View Post
P.S.: In some post it seems ( to me) implied that wanting SGR is linked with being GLB as a player. To me it is not. It has to do with the charaters I play not who I am. I am a male and it does not prevent me from playing female characters. I am straight why would that mean that I am not interested in playing charaters that are GLB and therfore wanting the SGR?
I just like watching 2 ladies kiss. Giggity.
. OPOD
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MusedMoose's Avatar


MusedMoose
07.27.2012 , 05:26 PM | #520
Quote: Originally Posted by wainot-keel View Post
They are not going for the "all bisexual" route.
I'm sorry if this seems nitpicky, but how do you know? BioWare hasn't said what companions will be available for SGRs, let alone how SGRs will be handled. It's possible all current love interests will be available to PCs of both genders, it's possible they won't. As far as I know, BW hasn't said anything either way.

If they have said something, and that's what you're basing your statement on, please, provide a link because I know lots of us want to know.

Quote: Originally Posted by HellbirdIV View Post
Though I'm straight I associate openly with LGBT people so the politics of gay rights are a big deal to me personally, but I have to agree with your point: At the end of the day, I want my characters to be able to be gay because that's part of their character.
This, very much this. I have friends all up and down the entire Kinsey scale, and gay rights is a big deal for me as well. But in the game, it really is just all about the characters I'm playing. I know that my BH has always known she's gay and never understood the concept of being in the closet, while my JK is big and strong and awkward, and how she feels about her sexuality is part of that so she needs Kira to help figure herself out. Please, BW. You wouldn't want my JK falling to the dark side due to not being able to be with Kira, would you?