Enough is enough!

Double post.

Heh... there's a whole 'nuther thread going this weekend that's discussing how griefer/exploiters on PvE servers are triggering PvP-flagged status on opposite-faction players using exploits that I won't mention here. Which buttresses my point: Griefer/exploiters are a problem WHEREVER they set up shop. You can minimize their virtual pathology and caricature the people who express their disgust at their behavior all you want, but it doesn't change the obnoxiousness of the griefer/exploiters. And it won't stop game developers from re-evaluating and revising the mechanisms that are being exploited.

Yes, there will always be a very small handful of players whose sole purpose in playing MMOs is to look for cracks in the design of their game's subsystems to gain some unfair and unintended advantage, but the biggest damage they do is motivating retaliation in kind. And that's when the vicious cycle kicks in: "Well, they did it first!" "No, YOU did it first!" and so forth. Reminds me of eight-year-olds squabbling over a game of wiffleball.

Only solution when such a child makes his presence known in a MMO is to give him a whack with the banstick.

What's wiffleball?

You may be surprised to hear this, but it doesn't buttress your point AT ALL. I agree with you. This has no business happening on a PvE server. It shouldn't be done and Bioware should fix it (uless it's what they intend, which I doubt). And although I think you PvEers have so watered down the word griefing as to make it pointless, if anything qualifies, this would be it.

However, on the PvP servers anything the players can do (including training 10 groups of elites mobs onto other players) to impact or impede the opposing players (short of meta-game tactics like account stealing or hacking) is PvP and "it happens" and if you don't want this kind of PvP or any other, get off the PvP ruleset servers.

In fact, I have characters on both PvE and PvP servers in SWTOR. I would never pull the kind of BS you are talking about on the PvE servers, ever. With my PvP characters, anything goes (except hacking). Anything I can do (within the game's mechanics) to kill or impede opposing players is PvP and is fair game. It doesn't matter whether you label it as griefing, or exploiting, or unfair, or cowardly. Does this help you understand where we are coming from? It should be clear now that if there was only one kind of server I would be backing you up in your assertions. But since there are PvE and PvP servers, it sidesteps the entire issue of griefing and consensual PvP and it's why you are missing the point.

You know, I've played a lot of shooting games online and people will literally kick you from the game for camping and staying in place, waiting for people to run by just so you can kill them real quick knowing that the people cant save themselves.

I'm surprised that this has recently just become an accepted tactic now that online games have gone from computers to game systems. And the mindset of the system shooters I guess transferred back to MMO's.

I haven't seen any of this in action (left the game after the first month, came back and rolled an operative on a different server to play with friends) so I only have a vague idea of what exactly is happening. But from what I understand, players are able to aggro mobs onto an opposing player without aggroing the mobs themselves. Is that about right?

If that's true, then the key distinction here would be the lack of risk imposed by the griefing player. They're essentially exploiting aggro mechanics to throw additional packs of mobs at a player. On the other hand, if the griefing player is on the aggro table when they do this, then they're at risk and just using the game to their advantage.

If they tried doing this to an operative for example, would I be able to use cloaking screen and send those mobs back at the attempted griefer? If yes, it's fine. If no, exploit.

Oh, I understood exactly where you were coming from, six pages ago. It's clear we have different opinions on what kinds of behavior should be allowed or encouraged on PvP-ruleset servers. I think mechanisms like the ability of a player to enter combat and then trigger aggro responses from clusters of nearby friendly NPCs just by approaching them is an in-game mechanism that the devs need to look at and revise. You, however, apparently do not. To you, any such mechanism is simply sauce for the savoring, and you have no concern over any adverse effect on the in-game community. I, in response, offer the tongue-in-cheek observation that this unconcern is tantamount to "virtual sociopathy."

Maybe this discussion will motivate players to rise up and "defend" against these "virtual sociopaths" -- or maybe not. Or, maybe it will motivate people to quit MMOs entirely. Or, maybe it will motivate BioWare to borrow a page from WoW and alter NPC behavior. Or maybe it's all a big puff of hot air from all sides and nothing will change at all, and the griefer/exploiters will go right on doing what they are doing, and continue to be allowed to strive to make their favored MMO as unappealing a place as their twisted little hearts can conceive of. But if that's your idea of "fun," I would suggest that you not get too attached to it. One way or another, it's unlikely to last long. There could be changes to objectionable mechanics, or perhaps a ban for the offenders, or even in extreme, a complete shutdown of a game the griefer/exploiters helped make unprofitable.

You have it pretty much correct. A few details to correct, but you sound like you get the gist of it.

What's happening on PvP servers is players are going into heroic-quest areas and lurking among the elite same-faction NPCs: Imp players among Imp NPCs, Republic players among 'Pub NPCs. Then, they wait for enemy players to arrive in pursuit of a quest. Once the enemy players are embroiled in combat, the lurkers will take a potshot at them to enter combat mode, then scurry off to multiple groups of elite NPCs. The current mechanics of these NPCs' responses is that if a same-factin player approaches them while he's in combat mode, they will sense it and aggro on the players that person is in combat with. The "fun" for the griefer/exploiter is to get multiple groups of NPCs onto the questing players. And if the targeted players have some means to break aggro, the griefer/sploiter will simply do it again.

The griefer theoretically incurs some risk, because it's theoretically possible for a determined group to defeat or pull away all the NPCs the griefer/exploter has activated and stomp him, but it's obviously a difficult proposition. And since the quests are designed for 2-person groups, two-person groups are generally unable to overcome multiple groups of NPCs that are activated like this all at the same time, plus the one or two player characters mixing their own firepower into the fracas. It generally takes a fairly-sizable and skilled group to dig the griefer/exploiter out from behind his screen of NPCs. And on my server, there's one or two players who seem to enjoy whiling away their entire weekend doing this... at least, until he/they get rolled a couple of times. Determined opposition apparently spoils their lulz. Indeed, if they can be stripped of their precious NPCs, they generally show themselves to be incompetent players. Which is probably why they're there in the first place.

In short, it's a lame exploit that's only enjoyable to a player with a griefer's mentality.

Hahaha! You Guild members, or wanna be gansters who are beating down "lowbie" players to make yourselves feel better for being losers in real life are hilarious! You're probably people with no real friends and who were picked last in kick ball as kids. Your like the waste of life character on the WOW South park episode. What would these people do without the internet??? If one of you are involved in this thread...find REAL friends

Ahh, so the mobs are friendly to the griefer. In the strictest sense, I don't see it as exploiting, but it's still a serious dick move. I would be in favor of a fix that prevents aggro from being transferred outside of a mobs aggro radius, but at least there is the possibility of dealing with the griefing player if you're clever about it.

I'd hardly consider it PvP, they're clearly just doing it to piss people off, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it a bannable offense.