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Didn't Luke use his emotions/anger to beat his Father?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Didn't Luke use his emotions/anger to beat his Father?

ThunderVamp's Avatar


ThunderVamp
07.16.2012 , 10:54 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by DragonAgeOrgins View Post
It's not that I do not understand. Repeating what happended but in MORE DETAIL..still doesn't wash away the fact in that moment. In the very moment he ATTACKED his Father, using pure emotions only through WINNING the fight did he stop and see what he had become yes.

Let's say he did not win the fight. Would he allowed the dark side to seduced him into a full dark Jedi? I think it's not fair to say I'm not listening to what the others are telling me. But IGNORING at the same time that he did use his emotions only to say in the same breath. "He learned from it"

If he was such a great Jedi like his Master, then he wouldn't have been seduced by the Dark Side at all. Only THROUGH the Dark Side did he defeat his Father. That's the point I am trying to make. He did NOT use his Jedi tricks. At the point he attacked his Father. He was hyped on full rage.

Despite learning from it later.

In that moment, he only won true victory using his emotions. My argument is could he have done this as a Jedi? It's not fair to say "Oh he learned from it" he should never have been seduced by the dark side at all. He was trained by Yoda to not let that penetrate his mind.

Let's wash away the whole he learned from it. Fact is he used his emotions to fight his Father. He allowed his Father to provoke him and the Emperor. If he wouldn't have won that fight he would "Never have learned not to follow that path"..does that make sense.

You cannot exactly have him squeaky clean image. Just like the Jedi in "Revenge of the Sith" was about to kill the Emperor. Jedi are not supposed to use anger. My argument still stands despite what he learned later as a Jedi he NEVER should have allowed the dark side overcome him, but not only did he let it. He used it's power.
But that isn't what you were originally asking. My response addressed the points in your original post:
1. Yes, he faltered initially and drew on the dark side to try and attack the Emperor. But he backed away from it.
2. Yes, he attacked Vader in a rage and yes, he defeated him using the power of his emotions.
3. He stopped himself. He renounced that darkness and walked away from it. He failed to succumb in the end. And that is why the Emperor wasn't jumping with glee in the end. His laughter stopped because he SAW that Luke couldn't be turned. That the falter, even though it won the fight, was not going to dominate Luke's destiny.

Luke walked into the fire, he got burned, but he came out whole.

DragonAgeOrgins's Avatar


DragonAgeOrgins
07.17.2012 , 12:32 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by ThunderVamp View Post
But that isn't what you were originally asking. My response addressed the points in your original post:
1. Yes, he faltered initially and drew on the dark side to try and attack the Emperor. But he backed away from it.
2. Yes, he attacked Vader in a rage and yes, he defeated him using the power of his emotions.
3. He stopped himself. He renounced that darkness and walked away from it. He failed to succumb in the end. And that is why the Emperor wasn't jumping with glee in the end. His laughter stopped because he SAW that Luke couldn't be turned. That the falter, even though it won the fight, was not going to dominate Luke's destiny.

Luke walked into the fire, he got burned, but he came out whole.
Only AFTER he won did he stop. If Vadar had defended that blow and nearly beat him. He wouldn't had the chance to do the right thing. He used the Dark Side of the force but as long as he does what is "right" in the end is all that matters.

Your first two sentences prove my point. He used raged/emotion those are Sith traits, whom is to say that if he would have been defeated he wouldn't have done what is right. Darth Vadar fought his master in a fury of rage. Yet he had been defeated which caused him to rage even more. As Darth Vadar was on the ground. He was screaming at his master "I Hate you"

In this situation. Luke Skywalker had defeated Vadar. My point is only that he used Sith Emotion/ Dark Side of the force. Only through the Dark Side was he able to defeat Vadar. You do not see Yoda or other Jedi using the Dark Side of the force. Why is it Okay for Luke Skywalker to use it, as long as he does what is right.

My overall point is proven that he used the dark side of the force to get victory, only through victory did he stop himself and go back to the light. Only when the rage had died down and he had obtained his goal. That is the point I am trying to make that he only was allowed victory by using his emotions/ dark side.

He wasn't able to defeat the Emperor using the light side or he would have never sliced Vadar in half had he not used his emotions only through that was he able to obtain victory. Using the Dark Side "at all" can have serious side effects. Why is okay for him to use the Dark Side, only when it suits him in direct conterdiction of his Jedi Teachings?

A: Would he have been able to defeat Vadar without using the Dark Side?

B: Did he indeed use the Dark Side to defeat Vadar. (Yes this was confirmed)

C: Why is it okay for a Jedi to use the Dark Side of the Force to obtain his goal as long as he uses the light side at the end.

I am hearing the feedback. I am not ignoring it. I would have expected more from someone who was trained directly by Yoda not to have been provoked. Using the Dark Side at all, usually leads to full dark side. That is my point. It's not the light that defeated Vadar. It was the dark side of the force.

Setsugetsuka's Avatar


Setsugetsuka
07.17.2012 , 12:52 AM | #23
Quote:
I am hearing the feedback. I am not ignoring it. I would have expected more from someone who was trained directly by Yoda not to have been provoked. Using the Dark Side at all, usually leads to full dark side. That is my point. It's not the light that defeated Vadar. It was the dark side of the force.
Luke could have killed Vader, his father, but chose not to, aligning himself with the Light Side of the Force. When Vader killed Sidious, it was done out of love for his son, the same son who he witnessed only moments ago, giving himself to the Light Side of the Force, like Anakin once had.

I think the physical fighting is irrelevant for the most part in the final battle, it's all the subtle, deep meaning behind the strikes and actually the mental fight happening between the three of them that is the true battle.

DanteKardo's Avatar


DanteKardo
07.17.2012 , 04:48 AM | #24
You're overthinking it. It wasn't some grand-darkside turning point for luke. And again, you're also dramatizing the possible damage done by a slip-up moment in regards to force kharma (as in lightside-darkside balance).

A single dark-willed act alone never sufficed to make a Jedi a Sith, or darksider. Take any of the Expanded Universe material for example, plenty of Jedi there that slipped up and yet managed to stay ontop. Also, Yoda didn't train Luke properly. a Jedi's training spans over decades, and most padawans aren't appointed knights up until their late tweens. Yoda had to compress those decades of training into a few puny months. It's also why he clearly stated that Luke was no Jedi yet and would not be until passing his final trial (Which you can actually read up on Wikipedia, Jedi trials, featuring several important key points that a Jedi had to go through in order to be recognized as one.)

Either way, why is this so important to you? Perfect characters are boring and it was this exact thrill of near-tainting in Luke that made the moment memorable. Let's not forget, he didn't commit a darkside act in itself. He was 'fighting' a darksider, he won, and stopped before killing him. all in all that's positive, not negative on kharmic scale.

Also, If you think that something like this makes him darksided, tainted or whatnot. Go read up on Mace Windu and his Lightsaber style Vapaad. He was constantly flirting with the darkside and still managed to remain a peon of light and head of the Jedi council for decades to come, until the fall of the republic.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
07.17.2012 , 06:17 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by DragonAgeOrgins View Post
A: Would he have been able to defeat Vadar without using the Dark Side?

B: Did he indeed use the Dark Side to defeat Vadar. (Yes this was confirmed)

C: Why is it okay for a Jedi to use the Dark Side of the Force to obtain his goal as long as he uses the light side at the end.
A: No, he wouldn't have been able to defeat Vader without the Dark Side. Or even if he would, he didn't intend to fight him. He would have let himself get killed.

B: Yes, it was confirmed.

C: No, it is not okay for a Jedi to use the Dark Side of the Force to obtain his goal. But Luke didn't obtain his goal. After he had beaten Vader, his situation was not different from before. The Emperor tried to lure him to the Dark Side.
His goal was to resist the dark side and to redeem his father. Non of these was accomplished by defeating Vader.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Skendra's Avatar


Skendra
07.17.2012 , 07:17 AM | #26
Like father, like son, right?

But anyway, i don't see Luke as "real" jedi in movies coz he got so little training. And yes, Darth Vader was holding back, but even then Luke got somewhat advantage on Vader coz of series of strong suprise attacks. Goal was to turn Luke to Dark Side.

In final fight Luke goes into hiding, then Vader starts with taunts... how would you feel if someone is threatning you with family? His reaction was completlly natural...

And also, Luke was raised on farm as normal kid, full of emotions. Remember when Yoda said to Obi-Wan how Luke is too old for jedi training? If he started training at the age of 5-ish, like they normally do, he wouldn't be so full of emotions... i think
Yes, i'm smash monkey ...

DaWaffle's Avatar


DaWaffle
07.17.2012 , 01:15 PM | #27
Someone missed the point of the entire scene.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
07.17.2012 , 01:33 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Skendra View Post
If he started training at the age of 5-ish, like they normally do.
They 'normally' obtain the child as early as possible, five is still pushing it.

cool-dude's Avatar


cool-dude
07.17.2012 , 04:41 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by DragonAgeOrgins View Post
Expect at the end he really didn't resist the lure of the dark side. Without him trying to strike the Emperor down his Father never would have dueled him. Without him channeling hatred of His Father taking his sister and turning her to the dark side. He never would have unleashed those fury of attacks.

I understand the ending of him jumping around and cheering and trying to save his Father. Yet when it counted he used his emotions. As a full Knight, he channeled that. Maybe at the end he stopped but short term he did what Sith did and used his emotions to help him win.

How does that make him better then a Sith, expect he didn't keep on using his emotions?
Sure he did, he eventually married and had a kid I believe.
"Sarcasm is strong in this one"

Lodril's Avatar


Lodril
07.17.2012 , 05:26 PM | #30
Possibly, depending on how you mean 'beat'.

Return of the Jedi is quite possibly the most brilliant work by John Williams, especially the scene you're talking about. If you go back to the scene, and don't just watch it, but listen to the music, the answers are all there. Each element in that scene has a theme, and you can tell who is winning by the music played. As Luke is fighting Vader, Vader's music surges and Luke's fades.

When Luke finally gives in and launches out of hiding, the part where he 'beats' Vader, the bold, triumphant music that surges isn't Luke's theme at all - it's the Emperor's. If you listen to the musical cues, Luke is doing terribly in that whole encounter until he throws his saber away. Once he does that, the whole scene changes, and when Vader turns, it is Luke's music that surges. That's when he wins. Using his lightsaber only earned victory for the Emperor; the weapon he needed, and won the battle with, was compassion.