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Didn't Luke use his emotions/anger to beat his Father?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Didn't Luke use his emotions/anger to beat his Father?

DarthBandeth's Avatar


DarthBandeth
07.16.2012 , 08:48 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by DragonAgeOrgins View Post
Expect at the end he really didn't resist the lure of the dark side. Without him trying to strike the Emperor down his Father never would have dueled him. Without him channeling hatred of His Father taking his sister and turning her to the dark side. He never would have unleashed those fury of attacks.

I understand the ending of him jumping around and cheering and trying to save his Father. Yet when it counted he used his emotions. As a full Knight, he channeled that. Maybe at the end he stopped but short term he did what Sith did and used his emotions to help him win.

How does that make him better then a Sith, expect he didn't keep on using his emotions?
You're right that during most of the process he wasn't acting the way a Jedi should have. But he did in the end and that's what counts. Mace Windu, a renowned Jedi with considerable seniority was still going to strike down the Emperor after their duel, which is not the Jedi way. Luke did the reverse, intended to strike Vader/Sidious down, but in the end chose the right path.

As others said, he falters but does the right thing in the end. Jedi are not infallible, and the Jedi would be the first to mention that.
"No amount of action or explosions is as interesting as a good story." ~ Christian bale

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Tuscad's Avatar


Tuscad
07.16.2012 , 08:58 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by DragonAgeOrgins View Post
How does that make him better then a Sith, expect he didn't keep on using his emotions?
He became a better person by learning from it.
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DanteKardo's Avatar


DanteKardo
07.16.2012 , 09:17 PM | #13
The point of the entire conflict was to signalize the 'good triumphs over evil aspect'. Luke, being this young man put against incredible odds has to resist the temptation of darkness in order to bring peace to the galaxy, and during the epic struggle where generations collided (Father vs. Son vs. Master(sidious) ), Luke eventually managed to remain true to the light, although tempted through the emperors words, and managed to remain on a Jedi's path, albeit nearly falling to the darkside in the process (I.E, him, as so nicely pointed out, 'disarming' Vader).

That's simply the 'story' aspect of this.

Now, to make matters simple. Yes, Luke did resort to emotions and anger to beat his father. Or rather, emotions and fear ( due to the implication that they may simply take Leia for training) that alone send him over the edge. Now, at the end, witnessing where he was going (I.E, seconds before dealing the death-blow to his father), He obviously couldn't, and decided not to, in which turn he proved superior to the darksides allure (A darksider would've let those passions and emotions drive further, killing his enemy). That knocked him a few darkside points on his jedi score, sure, but nothing substantial as, in the end he 'was' defending himself. But don't take it too much to heart, just commiting one or two 'anger' influenced acts does not make you a sith, nor a darksider. It takes a long malevolence streak and submission to the darkside to be considered a dark jedi, and 'specific' darkside training to be considered a sith. Such as the specific ability to harness such passionate and negative emotions in a very specific way to draw power form them (it's actually a bit like a Chi concept, you can read about the proper details on that in one of the EU sourcebooks)

Long story short. Yes he 'succumbed' to his emotions, he managed to best his father in that moment of weakness, but that doesn't mean in any way he faltered to the darkside or became a darksider that moment. just means he's got a bit of dirt on an overall bright-white coat of jedi points. (well, except in a few EU chapters afterwards lmao)

DragonAgeOrgins's Avatar


DragonAgeOrgins
07.16.2012 , 09:31 PM | #14
I hear people saying "He learned from it" the total fight happened in about 20 minutes maybe tops. So he learns from the Emperor himself that his plans to destroy the Sith have been thrown away. The Emperor jumps on his fears/ anger tells him if he wants too, to take the Light Saber and strike him down.

Luke trys to Strike him down but Darth Vadar blocks the attacks.

It's learned Darth Vadar could have destroyed him but was fighting with his own emotions. Darth Vadar jumps on Luke's fear that he would use his sister then Luke unleashes a fury of attacks defeating Vadar then realizing what he did stops and talks to him.

But it's okay for Luke to channel his anger/fear because he learned from it. Would it be fair to say that he used the Dark Side to make himself stronger, in that moment he defeated his Father he was not a Jedi. Yet he was a Sith.

He jumped on his Father and pretty much sliced him in half. He got that emotion from the fear his Father was saying "If you can't come to the dark side, maybe she will" only AFTER their duel was over and he was the winner, did he go to the Jedi way.

How is that much different when His own Father was confused about the light and dark the path. His Father as we all know picked the dark path. Had Luke not defeated his father and kept channeling his anger and not won wouldn't he had gone to the dark side?

Yes he did STOP. But again let's review only AFTER he won the duel His Father was defeated after he used his anger to surprise attack him.. What would have happended if He didn't win the duel and did he defeat his Father was a Jedi or using his emotions which made him stronger as a Sith?

ThunderVamp's Avatar


ThunderVamp
07.16.2012 , 10:00 PM | #15
You really don't seem to be listening to what the others are telling you, but I'll take a stab:

Yes, he gave in and used the Force to get his lightsaber and strike down the Emperor. His friends were dying, the Rebel Alliance was being crushed and hope was being extinguished before his very eyes. His desperation caused him to give in. At that moment Vader's blade blocked him and he withdrew. He fought long enough to break away and hide to avoid the fight. He resisted the lure of the dark side.

Then Vader goads him again, suggesting that Luke's sister will join them. At that point yes, he used the dark side of the Force in the final battle with Vader. He yells "Never!" and attacks Vader ferociously. He beats him. He takes Vader's hand. And then he SEES Vader's severed wrist. The wires and the machinery. He looks at his own hand and sees how much like his father he already is. How his anger has just brought him to THIS POINT. How his impatience in the past has already cost him. And the Emperor is laughing and telling him to kill his father and take his place at the Emperor's side.

And at this point, he pulls away from the dark side and does what his father couldn't do before him. He renounces that darkness, throws away his own lightsaber, commits to the light side of the force and accepts his own fate, even if it means he dies.

He is a Jedi. Like his father before him. But better.

Tuscad's Avatar


Tuscad
07.16.2012 , 10:06 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by DragonAgeOrgins View Post
I hear people saying "He learned from it" the total fight happened in about 20 minutes maybe tops. So he learns from the Emperor himself that his plans to destroy the Sith have been thrown away. The Emperor jumps on his fears/ anger tells him if he wants too, to take the Light Saber and strike him down.

Luke trys to Strike him down but Darth Vadar blocks the attacks.

It's learned Darth Vadar could have destroyed him but was fighting with his own emotions. Darth Vadar jumps on Luke's fear that he would use his sister then Luke unleashes a fury of attacks defeating Vadar then realizing what he did stops and talks to him.

But it's okay for Luke to channel his anger/fear because he learned from it. Would it be fair to say that he used the Dark Side to make himself stronger, in that moment he defeated his Father he was not a Jedi. Yet he was a Sith.

He jumped on his Father and pretty much sliced him in half. He got that emotion from the fear his Father was saying "If you can't come to the dark side, maybe she will" only AFTER their duel was over and he was the winner, did he go to the Jedi way.

How is that much different when His own Father was confused about the light and dark the path. His Father as we all know picked the dark path. Had Luke not defeated his father and kept channeling his anger and not won wouldn't he had gone to the dark side?

Yes he did STOP. But again let's review only AFTER he won the duel His Father was defeated after he used his anger to surprise attack him.. What would have happended if He didn't win the duel and did he defeat his Father was a Jedi or using his emotions which made him stronger as a Sith?
I must have stated that poorly, I meant that he learned that it wasn't a good thing to let his emotions get the better of him. While he did wrong what is important is the fact that he took that experience to better himself as a person.
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EnsignSorrow's Avatar


EnsignSorrow
07.16.2012 , 10:19 PM | #17
Except that Luke resisted the dark side when he realized in the dark force cave that Yoda sent him into that he could turn out to be like his father, and that he had lost the same arm as him in a duel.
"To be Jedi is to face the truth, and choose. Give off light, or darkness, Padawan. Be a candle, or the night, Padawan: but choose!"

DragonAgeOrgins's Avatar


DragonAgeOrgins
07.16.2012 , 10:25 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by ThunderVamp View Post
You really don't seem to be listening to what the others are telling you, but I'll take a stab:

Yes, he gave in and used the Force to get his lightsaber and strike down the Emperor. His friends were dying, the Rebel Alliance was being crushed and hope was being extinguished before his very eyes. His desperation caused him to give in. At that moment Vader's blade blocked him and he withdrew. He fought long enough to break away and hide to avoid the fight. He resisted the lure of the dark side.

Then Vader goads him again, suggesting that Luke's sister will join them. At that point yes, he used the dark side of the Force in the final battle with Vader. He yells "Never!" and attacks Vader ferociously. He beats him. He takes Vader's hand. And then he SEES Vader's severed wrist. The wires and the machinery. He looks at his own hand and sees how much like his father he already is. How his anger has just brought him to THIS POINT. How his impatience in the past has already cost him. And the Emperor is laughing and telling him to kill his father and take his place at the Emperor's side.

And at this point, he pulls away from the dark side and does what his father couldn't do before him. He renounces that darkness, throws away his own lightsaber, commits to the light side of the force and accepts his own fate, even if it means he dies.

He is a Jedi. Like his father before him. But better.
It's not that I do not understand. Repeating what happended but in MORE DETAIL..still doesn't wash away the fact in that moment. In the very moment he ATTACKED his Father, using pure emotions only through WINNING the fight did he stop and see what he had become yes.

Let's say he did not win the fight. Would he allowed the dark side to seduced him into a full dark Jedi? I think it's not fair to say I'm not listening to what the others are telling me. But IGNORING at the same time that he did use his emotions only to say in the same breath. "He learned from it"

If he was such a great Jedi like his Master, then he wouldn't have been seduced by the Dark Side at all. Only THROUGH the Dark Side did he defeat his Father. That's the point I am trying to make. He did NOT use his Jedi tricks. At the point he attacked his Father. He was hyped on full rage.

Despite learning from it later.

In that moment, he only won true victory using his emotions. My argument is could he have done this as a Jedi? It's not fair to say "Oh he learned from it" he should never have been seduced by the dark side at all. He was trained by Yoda to not let that penetrate his mind.

Let's wash away the whole he learned from it. Fact is he used his emotions to fight his Father. He allowed his Father to provoke him and the Emperor. If he wouldn't have won that fight he would "Never have learned not to follow that path"..does that make sense.

You cannot exactly have him squeaky clean image. Just like the Jedi in "Revenge of the Sith" was about to kill the Emperor. Jedi are not supposed to use anger. My argument still stands despite what he learned later as a Jedi he NEVER should have allowed the dark side overcome him, but not only did he let it. He used it's power.

Tuscad's Avatar


Tuscad
07.16.2012 , 10:36 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by DragonAgeOrgins View Post
My argument still stands despite what he learned later as a Jedi he NEVER should have allowed the dark side overcome him, but not only did he let it. He used it's power.
The funny thing about this is that most if not all of the Jedi have given into the darkside/made darksided decisions at some point. Qui-Gon did it, Satele Shan did it, Bastila Shan did it, Revan did it, Ulic Qel-Droma did it, Jaina Solo did it, Ben Skywalker did it, Mara Jade did it, Obi-Wan did it, Mace Windu did it, Kit Fisto did it, Saesee Tiin did it, and many more have... I wouldn't be suprised if Yoda has.
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ScarletBlaze's Avatar


ScarletBlaze
07.16.2012 , 10:50 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by DragonAgeOrgins View Post
Expect at the end he really didn't resist the lure of the dark side. Without him trying to strike the Emperor down his Father never would have dueled him. Without him channeling hatred of His Father taking his sister and turning her to the dark side. He never would have unleashed those fury of attacks.

I understand the ending of him jumping around and cheering and trying to save his Father. Yet when it counted he used his emotions. As a full Knight, he channeled that. Maybe at the end he stopped but short term he did what Sith did and used his emotions to help him win.

How does that make him better then a Sith, expect he didn't keep on using his emotions?
The dark side is always there. There are times it becomes more noticeable. You will never get away completely from the darkside. That is something you have to deal with on a daily basis. Using your emotions does not mean you have given in to the darkside. A jedi throughout his or her life will have to deal with emotions on a daily basis. If they dont, then they are not human and just a walking robot. Learning to deal with your emotions and rising above them is what makes the difference.

Yes Luke used his emotions but when it came down to choose he rose above his emotions and did what was right.
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