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emperor palpatine and order 66

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
emperor palpatine and order 66

Fyurii's Avatar


Fyurii
07.14.2012 , 08:21 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by HavocMaster View Post
If you haven't, read all the Republic/Imperial Commando books by Karen Traviss.
What, you mean the author who created Jedi characters that weren't Jedi, but Mandalorian fetishists?
Who used her works to force her anti-Jedi agenda on the readers by having her characters all spout her anti-Jedi views.

Quote:
They are great reads, and really illustrate the plight of the clone spec forces, and give you a good point of view.
They only give the Traviss point of view.

[/quote]Some Jedi *Read: Bardan Jusik* are OK, but most of them are glory hounds.[/quote]

I suppose the other Jedi whom you deem to be OK are, like Jusik, also creations of Traviss.
Traviss is the only one to have characters calling the Jedi "Glory Hounds", and doesn't actually provide any proof.

Quote:
To quote Captain Ordo Skirata concerning Kenobi "Cody may think the sun shines out of his hear, but I think he's a glory hound who wastes to many men" (Not verbatim).
Skirata, another Traviss creation.
The only times Jedi are denegrated and misrepresented in a manner contrary to the truth (concerning their conduct and manner during the Clone Wars), is by Traviss and her characters, even when they're supposedly Jedi ones too.

Quote:
The Jedi just need to get their heads out of their shebs and realize that they are leading a slave army. *End rant*
A "slave" army that they didn't know about, and actively encourage their individuality as living beings, instead of treating them as disposable cannon fodder.
________║≤o≥║___________
/_______TROOPER___≡≡≡≡≡≡≡╡
\_/‾‾‾‾ // ╝‾‾╚▄▄▄▄▄/‾‾‾‾‾

Sniperrecon's Avatar


Sniperrecon
07.15.2012 , 06:45 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by HavocMaster View Post
I agree with everything in this post! If you haven't, read all the Republic/Imperial Commando books by Karen Traviss. They are great reads, and really illustrate the plight of the clone spec forces, and give you a good point of view. This is why my sniper, while nearly all LS, takes DS to kill Sith, as often as he can. Some Jedi *Read: Bardan Jusik* are OK, but most of them are glory hounds. To quote Captain Ordo Skirata concerning Kenobi "Cody may think the sun shines out of his hear, but I think he's a glory hound who wastes to many men" (Not verbatim). The Jedi just need to get their heads out of their shebs and realize that they are leading a slave army. *End rant*
You also have to take into account that the Council was in debate (even if we don't agree with it IRL , see it in that universe) that the clones weren't human and could be used as fodder to end the war fast. Some Jedi didn't take this view and actually cared about their clones , thus why some of the clones refused to follow the order. Others squandered their clones in sensless battles and were heavlily disliked by their clones ( Mundui was one of them with the worste death ratio of all Jedi commanders)
Sniperrecon_USMC
Ex-Elder Jedi
Assassin for VICE guild of Chilistra (formally from Tempest)
7 yrs. with SWG , 18+ toons on a server. Master of all profession in SWG.

Sniperrecon's Avatar


Sniperrecon
07.15.2012 , 06:51 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Fyurii View Post
What, you mean the author who created Jedi characters that weren't Jedi, but Mandalorian fetishists?
Who used her works to force her anti-Jedi agenda on the readers by having her characters all spout her anti-Jedi views.



They only give the Traviss point of view.
Some Jedi *Read: Bardan Jusik* are OK, but most of them are glory hounds.[/quote]

I suppose the other Jedi whom you deem to be OK are, like Jusik, also creations of Traviss.
Traviss is the only one to have characters calling the Jedi "Glory Hounds", and doesn't actually provide any proof.



Skirata, another Traviss creation.
The only times Jedi are denegrated and misrepresented in a manner contrary to the truth (concerning their conduct and manner during the Clone Wars), is by Traviss and her characters, even when they're supposedly Jedi ones too.



A "slave" army that they didn't know about, and actively encourage their individuality as living beings, instead of treating them as disposable cannon fodder.[/QUOTE]

Even if you don't like it much , the films show the Jedi in general show a certain care for their clones lives. In most cases they don't view the clones as sentient beings , but as tools "grown" for the Clone Wars. Its in the CW cartoon which is G-Canon. In the Traviss books , it just shows a different side of the Jedi order and how some went into hiding. Later Jania finds a few Mando's that were actually Jedi or Jedi decendants that escaped the Purge.

Either way , its still a good read.
Sniperrecon_USMC
Ex-Elder Jedi
Assassin for VICE guild of Chilistra (formally from Tempest)
7 yrs. with SWG , 18+ toons on a server. Master of all profession in SWG.

Fyurii's Avatar


Fyurii
07.16.2012 , 11:15 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Sniperrecon View Post
Even if you don't like it much , the films show the Jedi in general show a certain care for their clones lives. In most cases they don't view the clones as sentient beings , but as tools "grown" for the Clone Wars. Its in the CW cartoon which is G-Canon.
Where is it shown that the Jedi regard the Clones as tools?
(Btw, T-Canon. Not G-Canon.)

Quote:
In the Traviss books , it just shows a different side of the Jedi order and how some went into hiding. Later Jania finds a few Mando's that were actually Jedi or Jedi decendants that escaped the Purge.

Either way , its still a good read.
How many of those Jedi that found refuge with the Mandalorians appeared outside of her books before she used them?

Disregard Traviss when it comes to depictions of Jedi, and especially Jaina.
For some bizarre and completely unexplained reason, the Jedi whom pioneered most of the ways of combatting the Yuuzhan Vong suddenly was incapable of fighting an opponent that couldn't be sensed through the Force, and seemed to have inexplicably lost all her years of fighting skill.
To top it off, for reasons beyond comprehension she had Jaina go to the Mandalorians to learn how to defeat a Sith. Not her uncle Luke Skywalker, the greatest Jedi to have lived and most experienced member of the Jedi Order when it comes to combatting the Dark Side and its practitioners, but Space Vikings/Spartans/Hero Farmers who have an incredible record of failure against the Jedi Order in the past, and never even fought the Sith.
________║≤o≥║___________
/_______TROOPER___≡≡≡≡≡≡≡╡
\_/‾‾‾‾ // ╝‾‾╚▄▄▄▄▄/‾‾‾‾‾

kirorx's Avatar


kirorx
07.16.2012 , 11:24 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Lodril View Post
I don't think the clones had to be 'tricked' at all. The Jedi are terrible leaders. Since they're usually the focus of the story, it's easy to identify with them, but if you take a step back, you can see why the clones wouldn't be thrilled with them anyway.

It's a modern military, yet the Jedi have them doing cavalry charges and running en masse at enemy emplacements. The Jedi go too... but the Jedi are nigh-invulnerable, able to sweet blaster fire aside and dodge with uncanny foresight. The clones they lead just get shot.

In AotC, Mace Windu gets a squad of specially trained commandos. What does he do with them? Do they sneak around, and catch the enemy where they're not looking? Nope; he leads these stealthy demolition experts on a madcap charge to the front lines.

The Jedi are endlessly confident and endlessly reckless. Yoda himself says as much. They answer not to the people of the Republic or any other authority, but instead to a mystical power beyond non-Jedi comprehension. Why should they get to throw people's lives away just because they can make rocks float in the air? Why should they be given command of armies when they have no experience or training in leading them?
I think the same thing, but their military tactics never got much better. Just look at the assault on the Tantive IV

PanikSpreder's Avatar


PanikSpreder
07.16.2012 , 09:15 PM | #26
Just to clarify - this is all of the orders: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7CRatBZBaY

... dont throw me into the Sarlacc Pit!

Chaac's Avatar


Chaac
07.17.2012 , 11:24 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Fyurii View Post
Disregard Traviss when it comes to depictions of Jedi, and especially Jaina.
For some bizarre and completely unexplained reason, the Jedi whom pioneered most of the ways of combatting the Yuuzhan Vong suddenly was incapable of fighting an opponent that couldn't be sensed through the Force, and seemed to have inexplicably lost all her years of fighting skill.
To top it off, for reasons beyond comprehension she had Jaina go to the Mandalorians to learn how to defeat a Sith. Not her uncle Luke Skywalker, the greatest Jedi to have lived and most experienced member of the Jedi Order when it comes to combatting the Dark Side and its practitioners, but Space Vikings/Spartans/Hero Farmers who have an incredible record of failure against the Jedi Order in the past, and never even fought the Sith.
I've never understand why people take such a clear issue against Jaina going to Boba to learn new fighting techniques. I'm not the biggest Travis fan but I think it was at least well explained. Jaina may have developed countless fighting techniques over the years but much of it was learnt either fighting alongside her brother or in the time when they were still close and would both share details and spare against one another, which means that if she fights him in the style she usually would he's going to be prepared for it and as he's picked up a host of talents during his five year travels that she doesn't know he's going to have all the upper ground.

Yes she could go to Luke but as he's just fought with Jacen to a standstill with neither emerging the victor she clearly needs a different edge. All right Luke probably would have won his duel with Jacen were it not for Ben but that's not how the fight ended. Also she knows that Luke is having a hard time dealing with Mara's death and that adding her tutelage to his plate when he's struggling to lead the entire Order probably isn't the best thing to do.

You say she goes to farmers and space Vikings for training but that's not strictly true. She goes in search of Boba Fett who has a history of surviving against the odds and who has fought Jedi, is well trained in combat, was respected by Vader and can teach her a fighting style that she can mix with her Jedi abilities to be able to fight Jacen in ways he won't be expecting. Part of that ends up including her sparring with some of Fett's mandalorians and yes here they're strength is played up a little too much but that doesn't remove the entire basis for why she goes there in the first place.

There's a lot of LotF that is poorly written such as Han and Leia deciding Jacen is dead to them in pretty much every book only to decide it again in the following one, or Mandalorians who are much stronger than they should be (though at least that is slightly retconned when they have their asses handed to them in Invincible), but Jaina going to Fett for training that Jacen didn't expect made more sense than most of the plots since the NJO. It all boils down to: Jacen knows how she fights, she needs to mix a new different style with her Jedi abilities, Lukes a little busy and Fetts a man who tends to get the job done so might know a thing or two about fighting hard odds. Makes sense to me.
Wedge: "I don't like this notion of dovin basal mines that pursue you."
Han: "Me, either. I'm going to draft a strongly worded letter to the Yuuzhan Vong high commander and insist he stop using them."

ratty's Avatar


ratty
07.18.2012 , 04:14 AM | #28
I'd put it down to the Jedi not thinking, not realising and not being aware of all the events conspiring around them. They let their guards down on a number of occasions and believing that it was in the interests of defending the republic allowed the clones to continue on without challenging the methods being used to train them or what they were being taught. The Jedi seemed to be quite naive and too trusting then all their focus was on the war effort in order to try and protect the republic without really questioning everything else that was going on.

They were taught all these orders before leaving the cloning facilities. When they left the facilities they were the perfect soldiers who would follow orders and obey their command structure. At the start they were taught to obey the Jedi so why would the Jedi really question things when these trrops are following their orders. Then out of nowhere the Jedi were completely caught off guard when Order 66 was given. The Jedi never planned on such a thing ever happening probably because they never thought such a thing could happen. That was their downfall and Palpatine took advantage of the Jedi at every stage throughout his (no doubt) many many years of planning for this day.

LahLahSr's Avatar


LahLahSr
07.18.2012 , 08:08 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by HaleLightmight View Post
has anyone though about this topic?like really REALLY THOUGH about it?
because there is one thing i would like to know,how does emperor palpatine trick the clones into order 66?
like do the clones know about ,and the order was emplanted in their mind during growth.and if they did,how did obi wan and all the other jedi not sense it?or was it like "(emperor palpatine speaking) now listen you pathic fools,the jedi are traders to the republic,and you will gain their trust, then when i give the command,you will kill them.all of them." or is there some thing else going on and i'm just really clueless and dumb enogh to figure it out
?
There is no "trick" per se. Every military is obliged to carry out the orders of the legally appointed government. Whether a solider has this thought "implanted" during growth or is simply conditioned through training, the result is largely the same. It's simply a soldier's code - they must obey lawfully issued commands no matter if they agree with them or not. In Star Wars, the clone army was specifically bred to be even more obedient than your average soldier, thus making the command structure more effective from a "speed of execution" standpoint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielErickson
Sith are evil.

Fyurii's Avatar


Fyurii
07.19.2012 , 12:08 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Chaac View Post
I've never understand why people take such a clear issue against Jaina going to Boba to learn new fighting techniques. I'm not the biggest Travis fan but I think it was at least well explained. Jaina may have developed countless fighting techniques over the years but much of it was learnt either fighting alongside her brother or in the time when they were still close and would both share details and spare against one another, which means that if she fights him in the style she usually would he's going to be prepared for it and as he's picked up a host of talents during his five year travels that she doesn't know he's going to have all the upper ground.
The Mandalorians had never fought the Sith, had no experience combatting Dark Side users, and had lost every war when they went up against the Jedi.

If Fett had known Teras Kasi or had actually received some other form of training in combatting Jedi and Sith (what's good for one isn't always good for the other), maybe.
Instead Travis jammed her hand up her arse and pulled out "Mando mind-frak contradictory calm berzerker"... There have been plenty of techniques devised to limit a Jedi/Sith's ability to sense impending danger and their innate sight of a few seconds into the future, but obviously none of them were Mando enough or illogical enough for Travis to use.

If Travis hadn't completely changed Jaina's character and had Fett or other Mandalorians actually know any of the established techniques used to combat Jedi and Sith beyond pulling an excremental excuse for Mando superiority over Jedi in combat, it would have come off a thousand times better, and made her Mandos more bearable. Of course she didn't, because she didn't come up with them in the first place, so she wouldn't use something already existing for her Mandos unless it was already Mandalorian in the first place.
________║≤o≥║___________
/_______TROOPER___≡≡≡≡≡≡≡╡
\_/‾‾‾‾ // ╝‾‾╚▄▄▄▄▄/‾‾‾‾‾