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Seer PVE Healing Guide (1.3)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Seer PVE Healing Guide (1.3)

chaosme's Avatar


chaosme
07.09.2012 , 07:54 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
You raise some good points, so let me see if I can offer a few thoughts.

First, the War Hero relic is definitively better than the Matrix Cube, so if you can stomach the PVPing it's an outright upgrade. That being said, you could wear a Rakata set from the vendor and heal everything in the game, so if you don't want to PVP there's no massively compelling reason to force yourself.

So yes, as it stands, irrespective of your second relic choice, you're not going to have any issues with maintenance healing. And when you do hit a phase when the healing demands spike, for 30 seconds the Campaign relic will effectively be much more useful than having the War Hero version. It's just a shame than 1.3 reduced the efficacy of the relic at filling this role; 405 Power for 20 seconds was that much nicer.

Still, my experience on Kephess is largely similar; I never used the Campaign relic nor my Rakata Adrenal after progression attempts. On that basis, the War Hero relic is the more attractive pick, because if you're not using the clickie you might as well take the passive boost and give yourself more headroom in general.
This makes sense. Given that once you have gone pass the learning phase, there probably isn't going to be much use of the clickie relic since most of the damage would be rather predictable and you can plan ahead for them. I'll probably keep the clickie relic while we're still progressing through HM Kephess, and once we get that down, change to one of the PVP relics for the passive power boost.

Quote: Originally Posted by RickAdams View Post
I also want to comment on the build above and not going 3/3 in penetrating light or taking this point from Pain Bearer. I take the point from Valiance. My feeling is that the damage from Noble Sacrifice is something you regulate and plan for. You know when you can safely do this and heal up the damage (usually standing in salvation). I don't usually have a problem healing to full after a NS. With Pain Bearer, this helps in emergencies when I'm all of a sudden in threat of dying. The extra healing is essential just to keep myself alive. I just feel that the extra 1% crit chance is worth more than saving some health loss from NS when you almost never have any issues healing this damage anyway.
I agree with the point that usually when you use NS, you plan for it and healing back the damage is not an issue. I personally run with 2/2 Pain Bearer and 3/3 Penetrating Light with no points in Valiance and I don't have any issues. The decrease in health spent is kinda lack-lustre too at 2% per point, which amounts to 400hp if your max health is 20000 (the average amount you should be hitting in BH/campaign level gear).

Having said that, it still amounts to personal preference and I can understand wanting to take up Valiance to take smaller health hits so that you feel safer just in case you end up taking spike damage for whatever reasons.

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
07.10.2012 , 01:12 PM | #12
You can argue for the situational benefit of Pain Bearer or Valiance, imo. Pain Bearer is beneficial when you're taking damage from any source. Valiance gives you more leeway to utilise Noble Sacrifice when you're getting pressured by incoming damage, on the other hand.

Ultimately, at BiS gear levels you're going to have about 20k health, give or take. Each point in Valiance means 400 less damage taken for every NS. You'd have to take 10,000 in healing from other sources for every NS (20,000 if you drop two points) before Pain Bearer becomes more mathematically advantageous.

AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
07.10.2012 , 02:45 PM | #13
Hey everyone, this is a very nice thread and I am liking the conversation between some of you on the specs. I have been a Sage/Seer since Early Access and am currently 4/4 HM EC 8 man and 4/4 SM EC 16 man. I just have a question or two about the original post and wanted to get some feedback from you all on some of my ideas and practice.

First, the "Priority Flowchart" seemed contradictory, or I'm just reading it wrong?
Quote:
4. Does tank have Force Imbalanced debuff? If no, Force Armor. Otherwise;...
Green (Minor): Tank? Wait for yellow...
Yellow (Moderate): ...Be conservative with your use of Force Armor, however; while reasonably efficient...
It's instructing the healer to keep Force Armor on the tank at all times but then states to save it until the tank is in the "yellow" zone of healing. With 20 seconds of Force-imbalance I can't see Force Armor always making it into the rotation for the tank. Out of practice, I find it better to save Force Armor for when you know a heavy hit is coming for any player (like the Baradium Bomber's Rocket Launcher), or if a player drops to around 25%, this depending on the fight of course.

Second, step one of the flowchart I see Seers doing all the time, and honestly I don't think it is necessary.
Quote:
1. Before the fight, Force Armor everyone and Meditate.
In most PvE encounters, Force Armor will wear off before most players even take any damage because of the time it takes for the encounter to even begin. The Sage first must buff everyone, Meditate, and then the tank must initiate the encounter. There are only a few fights where DPS and healers may be taking damage off the bat and even then it may not be for a few moments. Step one isn't bad practice for PvE, it just eats up time in my opinion. Force Armor the tanks and anyone you know that may initially pull lots of threat. Other than that I don't think everyone needs a safety bubble. Now for PvP it is definitely a great idea to armor everyone right before or after the doors open seeing as anyone and everyone may end up being targeted off the get-go.

The build of a spec is always in debate to the last point, but I have just been taking the point out of Valiance because I don't think the difference from Pain Bearer and Valiance is that significant. Pain Bearer is a live saver on fights where heavy AOEs or directed attacks are wailing on me (like Kephess). I can see where having 2/2 in Valiance can be more advantageous, but I generally don't have a difficult time maintaining over 75% Force with 85% health while even in the grit of my rotation. I just keep Rejuvenate on myself or stand in Salvation. I may try moving that point for the week and seeing where it goes, but in Ops, especially HM EC, you're going to be taking a lot of damage no matter what and having Pain Bearer on call has saved my buns quite a few times, and my Force Regen. Right now I crit for around 7.2k with Deliverance on myself and 6.75k on other players (with Consular + Knight buff but no stim) that don't have any increased healing received. That 8% difference saves me Force and time from dropping another heal on myself most occasions. No one is wrong where that last point goes because it will always be beneficial in one way or another, it just depends on what you do more and what the situation. To each their own.

Gearing, this is what I have been working a ton on recently and am still ironing out the fine details, so I have a lot of input here and even learn. Before I go on, just like this guide and what anyone says here, try to take everything here in bits. We all have our own ideas about healing and knows what works best for us personally, and what works for us may not work for you.

Onager, as said in his guide, has a personal preference of having a higher then average crit, around 35% unbuffed. I lean towards a heavier Power build with an unbuffed crit of 25%. Why so low of crit? Allow me to explain.

Lucky Shots, the Smuggler class buff, provides 5% crit automatically putting it up to 30%. Force Valor, the Consular buff, takes it up to 31%. Add just a Prototype Resolve stim (+104 Willpower) and fully buffed that's nearly 32% crit with already 1910 Willpower for my stats. Now that amount of crit may be on the low side for some of you but it seems to work out fairly well for me. I have a 73.64% Surge chance at the moment so when I do crit is well worth it. My bonus healing fully buffed is also 764.8 boosting my base heals by a seriously large amount making those crits all the sweeter. With enough power the versatility of Seer healing is endless because when you do need an "uh-oh" button you have Force Armor and Force Potency to throw that player back into the upper bracket of their health no sweat. I firmly believe that Seer healing is pivotal for Ops just because we are the most versatile healers and preform best when having to maintain large groups of players. Other healers shine with single-target healing or maybe four people at a time, but the Seer is the only one that can easily cover an entire 8-man Ops group no sweat. I feel that Power fills in as a better stat for maintaining the group than crit just because I don't need to rely on a chance of a critical to be effective. High crit, on the other hand, plays a huge role in single-target healing and an emergency heal, but as I said early, that's what Force Potency is for. I don't find myself using Force Potency often so it is nearly always ready to go in case a little burst healing is needed.

In the guide it said to stack Resolve augments no matter what. If you are favoring a crit build and already nearing or hitting diminishing returns (DR), then I would say go for it. Primary stats like Willpower, Strength, Aim, and Cunning don't start hitting "significant" DR until 2000, and even then the scale for DR is less than Surge and Crit. Personally, I use whatever augments compliment my gear make-up. At the moment I am using Overkill (Power) augments, but that may change soon in order to add a small amount of Alacrity so I can drop an Alacrity enhancement for some more Surge. As I said, I'm still itemizing my gear and will probably be at it for another week or so. Just to quell some worries, I am looking into boosting my crit a bit more, so I'm not that stubborn with my "unlimited power" build.

As for the four-piece being optional or not, it isn't vital, but why not get it? 50 extra Force is pretty darn nice and the only reason to sacrifice a four-piece bonus is to get the two-piece bonus from the other set. The two-piece for Force-Master's being 2 points reduced cost of Disturbance and Telekinetic Throw you're better off just getting the 50 extra force.

As I said before, sweet guide and I hope that Aurojiin is able to change and expand it in the future as patches alter Seer healing and new gear starts popping up.

RickAdams's Avatar


RickAdams
07.10.2012 , 02:50 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
You can argue for the situational benefit of Pain Bearer or Valiance, imo. Pain Bearer is beneficial when you're taking damage from any source. Valiance gives you more leeway to utilise Noble Sacrifice when you're getting pressured by incoming damage, on the other hand.

Ultimately, at BiS gear levels you're going to have about 20k health, give or take. Each point in Valiance means 400 less damage taken for every NS. You'd have to take 10,000 in healing from other sources for every NS (20,000 if you drop two points) before Pain Bearer becomes more mathematically advantageous.
To say that it is mathematically more advantageous is kind of misleading. Its a benefit that is hardly ever realized because standing in salvation will you heal you to full anyway. I mean I get it. If you're taking a lot of damage I can see it being useful when you still need to NS. But to me, pain bearer is not only useful when healing up NS damage but it's also useful for healing ANY damage you take. It's a small benefit either way. You basically weigh 4% more healing on yourself over taking 400 more damage that is going to get healed anyway at no cost to you (usually).

RickAdams's Avatar


RickAdams
07.10.2012 , 03:49 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by AngelFluttershy View Post
First, the "Priority Flowchart" seemed contradictory, or I'm just reading it wrong?

It's instructing the healer to keep Force Armor on the tank at all times but then states to save it until the tank is in the "yellow" zone of healing. With 20 seconds of Force-imbalance I can't see Force Armor always making it into the rotation for the tank. Out of practice, I find it better to save Force Armor for when you know a heavy hit is coming for any player (like the Baradium Bomber's Rocket Launcher), or if a player drops to around 25%, this depending on the fight of course.
The tank is always taking damage, so having force armor up on the tank on CD is a good idea. Force armor is a very efficient heal. Rejuvenate is also a good idea for the armor buff as well as the heals which leads into healing trance with the increased crits. Now that being said, if you can outheal the damage with a rejuvenate and a healing trance then Force Armor isn't strictly necessary but it does help pause the incoming damage so you can top off the tank.

Quote: Originally Posted by AngelFluttershy View Post
Second, step one of the flowchart I see Seers doing all the time, and honestly I don't think it is necessary.
I agree, all this does is usually make you start off with less than 100% force while 80% of the people you bubbled don't get any benefit from the bubble anyway (how often does everyone in the raid immediately take damage?).

Quote: Originally Posted by AngelFluttershy View Post
Onager, as said in his guide, has a personal preference of having a higher then average crit, around 35% unbuffed. I lean towards a heavier Power build with an unbuffed crit of 25%. Why so low of crit? Allow me to explain.

Lucky Shots, the Smuggler class buff, provides 5% crit automatically putting it up to 30%. Force Valor, the Consular buff, takes it up to 31%. Add just a Prototype Resolve stim (+104 Willpower) and fully buffed that's nearly 32% crit with already 1910 Willpower for my stats. Now that amount of crit may be on the low side for some of you but it seems to work out fairly well for me. I have a 73.64% Surge chance at the moment so when I do crit is well worth it. My bonus healing fully buffed is also 764.8 boosting my base heals by a seriously large amount making those crits all the sweeter. With enough power the versatility of Seer healing is endless because when you do need an "uh-oh" button you have Force Armor and Force Potency to throw that player back into the upper bracket of their health no sweat. I firmly believe that Seer healing is pivotal for Ops just because we are the most versatile healers and preform best when having to maintain large groups of players. Other healers shine with single-target healing or maybe four people at a time, but the Seer is the only one that can easily cover an entire 8-man Ops group no sweat. I feel that Power fills in as a better stat for maintaining the group than crit just because I don't need to rely on a chance of a critical to be effective. High crit, on the other hand, plays a huge role in single-target healing and an emergency heal, but as I said early, that's what Force Potency is for. I don't find myself using Force Potency often so it is nearly always ready to go in case a little burst healing is needed.

In the guide it said to stack Resolve augments no matter what. If you are favoring a crit build and already nearing or hitting diminishing returns (DR), then I would say go for it. Primary stats like Willpower, Strength, Aim, and Cunning don't start hitting "significant" DR until 2000, and even then the scale for DR is less than Surge and Crit. Personally, I use whatever augments compliment my gear make-up. At the moment I am using Overkill (Power) augments, but that may change soon in order to add a small amount of Alacrity so I can drop an Alacrity enhancement for some more Surge. As I said, I'm still itemizing my gear and will probably be at it for another week or so. Just to quell some worries, I am looking into boosting my crit a bit more, so I'm not that stubborn with my "unlimited power" build.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the class buff to crit isn't effected by diminishing returns (or very little). So having a higher than average crit with the added buff is a huge help when healing.

Now, having looked at similiar threads in the gunslinger and trooper forums, it seems that it is almost always beneficial to stack your primary stat over power. Your primary stat benefits from plus 6% willpower from talents and +5% from buffs. Power does not. This negates most of the benefit of the bonus healing from power. Your primary stat also adds to crit which I think is also not subject to diminishing returns the way crit rating is. So unless you're short on a stat, I think your best bet is to stack willower augments.

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
07.10.2012 , 03:54 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by AngelFluttershy View Post
It's instructing the healer to keep Force Armor on the tank at all times but then states to save it until the tank is in the "yellow" zone of healing. With 20 seconds of Force-imbalance I can't see Force Armor always making it into the rotation for the tank.
I have plenty of feedback on your other comments, but I'm pressed for time right now, so I just wanted to address this point. I'll be back

The yellow priority use of Force Armor is intended to apply to everyone other than the tank. Given that FA is powerful and reasonably efficient, I refresh it on the tank whenever possible, since tanks by definition take regular damage, and by virtue of having high mitigation they're not going to get spiked or melted as fast as the rest of the raid.

Quote: Originally Posted by RickAdams View Post
I agree, all this does is usually make you start off with less than 100% force while 80% of the people you bubbled don't get any benefit from the bubble anyway (how often does everyone in the raid immediately take damage?).
Um, "and Meditate"? Free healing is free healing.

Your evaluation of Willpower vs Power is right on the mark, though.

XtremJedi's Avatar


XtremJedi
07.10.2012 , 05:11 PM | #17
There's a question of timing with pre-bubbling.

I reckon that you should always have tank bubbled nicely in advance of his engaging. The benefit to having the shield absorb a load of damage and then be able to refresh it almost immediately, because the immunity had already largely worn off, is considerable.

Bubbling the whole group is more difficult to time well. You may not get all the way through the bubbles and find that your tank has already engaged... or you may find that the group you're playing with doesn't wait long enough to allow you to meditate back to full. It can be a pain trying to educate them about it too... not least because in some situations it will slow down a group, if they have to wait for you to cast the bubbles and meditate.

With a group that you know well and who understand the dynamic though, bubbling all group members and then meditating to regain all the force, has the potential to be advantageous. Bubbling all and meditating makes particular sense for more difficult fights, especially when there's likely to be early AoE damage. Bubbling melee and meditating is more often useful than bubbling all.

But if you have a group that doesn't mind the few seconds extra taken in preparation for a given fight, then there's no downside to bubbling all group/raid members and meditating back to full force.

X

AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
07.10.2012 , 05:52 PM | #18
Better start responding now before Aurojiin hits me with a wall-of-text back!

Quote: Originally Posted by RickAdams
The tank is always taking damage, so having force armor up on the tank on CD is a good idea. Force armor is a very efficient heal. Rejuvenate is also a good idea for the armor buff as well as the heals which leads into healing trance with the increased crits. Now that being said, if you can outheal the damage with a rejuvenate and a healing trance then Force Armor isn't strictly necessary but it does help pause the incoming damage so you can top off the tank.
I definitely see the benefit of keeping Force Armor up at all times. Its buffer allows the healer to keep the tank topped off, as you said. Since it can absorb so much damage I just imagine it as a buffer when I need the extra help which doesn't typically include my normal rotation. Healing Trance with Rejuvenate is enough for me to keep the tank topped off on most occasions and, as the guide said, Force Armor does like to eat up Force even with the cost reduction we get. Don't get me wrong, I still use it very frequently, but keeping the tank with a constant Force-imbalance debuff isn't necessary in my case.

Quote: Originally Posted by RickAdams
Correct me if I'm wrong but the class buff to crit isn't effected by diminishing returns (or very little). So having a higher than average crit with the added buff is a huge help when healing.
You're right, never said class buffs factor into the DR or that having a higher than average crit is a bad thing. I was just trying to outline my case of having a lower crit isn't a bad thing due to the compensation from the other class buffs and stims you can receive. Now if you're talking about a primary stat for a class, like Willpower, it does receive DR overtime but it is very small, especially in comparison with Crit and Surge, as I stated in my post.

This thread accents gearing towards a heavier crit, as is the author's preference, so I have to be careful when supporting my current lower crit build.

Quote: Originally Posted by RickAdams
Now, having looked at similiar threads in the gunslinger and trooper forums, it seems that it is almost always beneficial to stack your primary stat over power. Your primary stat benefits from plus 6% willpower from talents and +5% from buffs. Power does not. This negates most of the benefit of the bonus healing from power. Your primary stat also adds to crit which I think is also not subject to diminishing returns the way crit rating is. So unless you're short on a stat, I think your best bet is to stack willower augments.
I have no argument with you here. Power gives more than Willpower off the bat, but after all the additions Willpower can be more advantageous. Despite all the buffs though, Power still gives more Bonus Healing than Willpower (tested this by swapping identical gear with different Power and Willpower levels) but with the Power I obviously lose the benefit of extra crit chance. Plus, after all is said and done, the difference in Bonus Healing between Power and Willpower isn't that large. It just comes down to what you think is best for you, I'll play around with my Augments until I get something I like so I'm not shutting down the idea of stacking Resolve Augments. Now with Smuggler Skill Augments are amazing due to the huge passive increase they get above other classes (9%). But that's a different topic so I won't derail.

Quote: Originally Posted by XtremJedi
There's a question of timing with pre-bubbling.

I reckon that you should always have tank bubbled nicely in advance of his engaging. The benefit to having the shield absorb a load of damage and then be able to refresh it almost immediately, because the immunity had already largely worn off, is considerable.

Bubbling the whole group is more difficult to time well. You may not get all the way through the bubbles and find that your tank has already engaged... or you may find that the group you're playing with doesn't wait long enough to allow you to meditate back to full. It can be a pain trying to educate them about it too... not least because in some situations it will slow down a group, if they have to wait for you to cast the bubbles and meditate.

With a group that you know well and who understand the dynamic though, bubbling all group members and then meditating to regain all the force, has the potential to be advantageous. Bubbling all and meditating makes particular sense for more difficult fights, especially when there's likely to be early AoE damage. Bubbling melee and meditating is more often useful than bubbling all.

But if you have a group that doesn't mind the few seconds extra taken in preparation for a given fight, then there's no downside to bubbling all group/raid members and meditating back to full force.

X
Now that's what I was trying to say with fewer words. My guild has all the Operations down to a farming level so they just want to get through them most of the time. This doesn't leave me with much time to Force Armor every player as we have a tank that tends to pull everything any time he feels like it. As Xtrem said, as long as you get the tanks and melee DPS you should be alright.

chaosme's Avatar


chaosme
07.10.2012 , 06:34 PM | #19
Personally, I don't like to keep force armor up on the tank at all times. I rather prefer to keep it to times when the tank has taken a big spike and needs to be healed up quickly to compensate for the comparative lack of burst healing for our class, and for times when I know that the tank is going to take a big hit soon and I might not be able to make it into position to heal him fast enough - e.g. when the tank is jumping back onto stormcaller.

I find that keeping force-imbalanced on the tank at all times means that in the event that he ends up taking unexpected big spikes, there's this risk that I might not be able to bring his hp up in time. Having force armor ready to put up on the tank when I need to also means a few more seconds to heal up another toon that might be low and in risk of dying from another hit.

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
07.10.2012 , 07:04 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by chaosme View Post
Personally, I don't like to keep force armor up on the tank at all times. I rather prefer to keep it to times when the tank has taken a big spike and needs to be healed up quickly to compensate for the comparative lack of burst healing for our class, and for times when I know that the tank is going to take a big hit soon and I might not be able to make it into position to heal him fast enough - e.g. when the tank is jumping back onto stormcaller.
As I note at the beginning, take it all with a grain of salt, and ultimately exercise your own judgement.

That being said, the only situation where I'd consider not using Force Armor in rotation on the tank is during Kephess' final stages with two Sage healers in 8-man. There's nothing else in the game where I'd worry about spikes enough to deliberately exclude it. YMMV.

If we're presuming a high HPS situation (as Angel says, this is somewhat irrelevant if it's low-burden maintenance healing), refreshing Force Armor on the tank has some solid advantages:

2. It doesn't put Trance on cooldown.
3. It's more force-efficient than un-Conveyed Deliverance (which is going to have to be your filler otherwise).
2. It's an instant, which leaves you more time to NS/heal someone else. Ultimately you'll be doing more healing too.

Quote: Originally Posted by AngelFluttershy View Post
I have no argument with you here. Power gives more than Willpower off the bat, but after all the additions Willpower can be more advantageous. Despite all the buffs though, Power still gives more Bonus Healing than Willpower (tested this by swapping identical gear with different Power and Willpower levels) but with the Power I obviously lose the benefit of extra crit chance. Plus, after all is said and done, the difference in Bonus Healing between Power and Willpower isn't that large. It just comes down to what you think is best for you, I'll play around with my Augments until I get something I like so I'm not shutting down the idea of stacking Resolve Augments.
I'm afraid I have to strictly disagree with you here. The bottom line is that point for point, Willpower will increase your healing output by more than Power will. Willpower is simply better, and how much crit rating you're chosen to stack is irrelevant here.

I concur with you on the issue of Pain Bearer vs Valiance, inasmuch as both choices have benefit in different situations. Pick your poison. Personally I prefer to have a lower Noble Sacrifice penalty to afford me more leeway when I'm already pressured by incoming damage. As far as the counter-argument that Valiance has no real use when you're not taking damage, since Salvation will cover it anyway, well... I would submit that Pain Bearer has no relevance when you're not taking damage either. I'm going to adjust the builds to 3/3 Penetrating Light and put up both options.

And I did originally had a wall of text worth of thoughts, but I decided to be succinct for a change