Lost Island observation

You know, I didn't even notice that part. I did read section 2 (Proposed Requisite Factors for a Valid Opinion), but I started skimming after the first subsection (Family Unit Size; Minimum Number of Children).

Also, quoted for common sense.

Spoken by someone who sounds as though they are yet to attempt it, if your interested in a flash point that my require you going back week after week to try and clear a flashpoint then kudos to you. Past games would indicate that a percentige of non raiding players dont have this mentality, and we have to remember regardless of it's tier ranking it has been marketed as a flashpoint and not an operation.
As for there being no hope for me, I have already cleared it multiple times. In fact I sub one member out of my 4 man crew each week to take a fellow guildy through so they can obtain the blue speeder.
Pure and simple introducing raid mechanics into flashpoint/instances has shown to be a poor formula over the last 2 years, Cataclysm can verify this.

Dont need it, my life is all roses.

Not interesting just pointless.
You believe non raiders can be BIS with all their gear and I disagree so we'll just leave it at that.

Funny that I never quite understood why FP's that didnt need nerfing were nerfed in 1.3, even with the advent of RDF pug groups shouldnt have any problem clearing pre 1.3 FP's.
Obviously BW intend for HM LI to act as filler content for raiders given that EC only has 4 bosses and will be cleared long before 1.4 is released. Marketing it as a FP however will create dissilllusion amongst players who cant manage to complete it. Regardless of whether it is ear marked as T2 or not player mentality shows that FP/instances should be achievable by 95% of players, and that wont be the case with HM LI.

This is good
Look I would be amazed at any Columi group completing HM LI in <30 min the first time, and the rewards definatley need tweaking. I'm assuming that like me this FP offered no upgrades for you but only the satisfaction of having done it plus the Aratech Ice.
It's just my opinion but if all the bosses dropped Rakata or Lorrick a token as you suggested I would advocate that non raiders would need to man up for this FP. If the rewards equaled the effort then it most certainly shouldnt be touched, if players want T3 raiding gear then they would need to work for it. But in it's current format I can understand the angst it is causing some players who are being driven to despair for a single chest piece and the Aratech ice.

The person you quoted was making the point that the group finder clearly communicates that players should expect a higher challenge from LI (on account of the tier 1 and tier 2 distinctions). Your response to this is to comment on how good you apparently are at clearing the flashpoint.

Your statements don't even have basic logical consistency. There was literally no connection between what was quoted and what you asserted. It's bizarre.

It's clear no amount of reasonable discussion will convince you to see past this nonsensical raid/non-raid divide you've constructed in your head. Part of the problem is that you simply provide no actual justification for your arguments: you just make arbitrary declarations about "non-raiders" and "raid mechanics" (whatever this means), while occasionally hand-waving Cataclysm references. Can you at least explain to me the following things:

1. What exactly are raid mechanics, as separate from - assumably - flashpoint mechanics?
2. Why should "non-raiders" have no options for challenging content?
3. Why should "raiders" have no options for challenging content in less than 8-man groups?

You can disagree, but that won't make me any less right. I explained how non-raiders can achieve BiS for about 80-90% of their gear, give or take. I'm yet to see a counterpoint.

I more or less agree here. Aside from the weekly BH comms, I suspect the only players who really benefit much from this flashpoints (notwithstanding the simple fun factor) are the more hardcore variety (or "raiders" if you will) who use it to accelerate their alts' gearing curves.

For players who are decently geared, the only loot-based reason to return regularly is if you're lucky enough to have a Rakata chest itemisation with a decent mod or enhancement. This is true of all flashpoints, essentially, but since LI stands alone in tier 2 it should really provide a stronger incentive to rerun it.

Now your stretching the line between fiction and fantasy DiLune, the US government wouldnt be financially capable of mandating a Benz in the driveway and overseas holidays for everyone. Leave that to private citizens who can afford it.

I see some people complain about it being to anti melee and I disagree with that on a healing point(scoundrel) as long as the group is stacked behind the boss also it really depends on the skill of tank and I admit that I could not tank the first boss I suck at it but never been a problem with my melee dps if the tank and healer is decent.

I finished Lost Island HM last night in a PUG : a tank is in Columi/Tionese, a melee DPS in Columi/Tionese, a 'geared' merc, and myself. (semi-geared merc healer). This is what I have noticed.

As neither me or the merc have interrupts, incinerate must be stopped by the tank or the melee dps. They simply cannot handle both movement and interrupt together. Moving out of the blue circle by itself is fine. Interrupt by itself is fine. Combine the two and they will mess up. After a few wipes, we resorted to the backup plan : ranged in the center, while the tank + melee move around on the outside. This worked because the amount of movement is reduced, and both the merc and myself have no issues with performing our roles while dodging lightning rods.

It's a matter of experience.

After that, we 'two shot' the 'Donkey Kong (tank flew off the platform on the first go), and then one shotted Dr Lorrick.

The first boss relies on the 'tank test'. The second boss relies on the healer, and the last boss relies on DPS. It is a very well though out flashpoint. If you're failing at the robot, that means your tank needs to do their homework.

Now you are putting words in my mouth, at no stage have I blown my own trumpet. In fact the first time I attempted HM LI it took us well over 2.5 hrs to complete with multiple wipes.
Irrespective of whether it has been marked as T1 or T2 flashpoints or instances by definition should be completable within 30min to 90 min. Past experience in both this game and other games have shown players that this is the case, do you trulty believe that the average player in either a guild group or pug group could complete HM LI within that time?
It is also poor manners to clip 1 sentence out of a paragraph in an attempt to try & score points.

statements don't even have basic logical consistency?
no connection between what was quoted and what you asserted?
Sorry, these statements are in fact bizarre, and nothing short of a veiled attempt to insult.

The above is what I classify as political talk, saying a great deal while actually saying nothing.
It's quite simple really, there are 2 types of players.......those that raid and those that dont. In the category of non raiders we have some pvpers, some crafters, & some casuals. Are you truly saying you dont see this?
Like many others I played Wow for 7 years, i saw it's rise to greatness and the start of it's decline from the dizzying heights it rose to. The introduction of raid style mechanics on boss fights in instances was a contibuting factor in the significant decline of sub rates in the first 3 months of Cataclysm's release.

Seriously??? you dont understand the term raid mechanics? Okay i'll bite

Raid mechanics
- group coordination
- patience
- time investment ( I still remember spending 6 weeks 3 nights a week on 1 boss in SSC many many years ago)
Flashpoint mechanics
- gratification/time investment of 30 - 90 min
- less group coordination required than operation bosses
- patience should never be a factor

It's not that they shouldnt but rather that the rewards need to justify the effort. If the average player is expected to show patience, a time commitment, and practice group coordination in a flashpoint then the reward should equal the effort.. Then and only then should we be justified in telling the average player to man up rather than calling them "bad" or saying L2P. And as HM LI currently stands the reward does not equal the effort for the average player, and for those players who have it on farm you probably already outgear it.

I can only speak for myself
I raid 3 days a week for 4 hours at a time, then there are dailies, and daily/weekly HM FP's to do. On top of that I run HM LI once a week to help a fellow guild member and collect my 8 BH badges. Why would I want raid difficulty introduced into 4 man content as well? I already get my challenging content 3 nights a week.....Time vs Effort vs Reward.

I don't see how choosing to delineate the community along the lines of those who raid and those who don't has any real relevance. Your argument seems to center on the idea that Lost Island is too exclusionary to the ability level of many "non-raiders" and is therefore discouraging. The way I see it, reality is far more complex than that.

Dedicated PVPers (and there's a fair few of them) are "non-raiders", but I doubt the relative difficulty of one flashpoint means anything to them. Many "non-raiders" don't even do endgame instanced content, choosing instead to level alts, craft, RP, etc. On the other side of the coin, some raiders aren't even capable of clearing LI unless they're carried. I've met more than one dedicated raider who's actually quite bad at the game, and more than a few "non-raiding casuals" who are very capable. Dividing people on the basis of whether or not they engage in 8-man (or greater) group content is just too simplistic.

The same goes for your concept of raid mechanics, since D7 has an equal (if not higher) level of mechanical challenge to the tier 1 ops. With the exception of Fabricator, everything in EV and KP is so simple it's barely more demanding than any of the tier 1 flashpoints anyway.

Maybe we can just agree that instead of adjusting the difficulty of LI, the loot drops should be retuned to make it more attractive and rewarding to players who don't necessarily have the benefit of being in a PVE progression-focused guild.

By your own admission non raiders will be BIS "for about 80-90% of their gear, give or take" does not justify a counterpoint. I stand by what i said, non raiders will not be BIS with all their gear, and what gear they can achieve as BIS doesnt bother me. I truly worry less about what others can achieve, and enjoy helping others achieve what they cant on their own or in groups.

All correct. Which to me is a shame
I actually gear my alts running HM EV & KP with new guild recruits, but as you said the 8 BH comms are the only reason to keep running it. I say it's a shame because players who choose not to raid benefit most from this flashpoint, and for a percentage of them it will probably never be completed.

I try not to rush things as that leads to a content vacuum in MMO's. Given the BH comms from running EV & KP in SM using the RDF platform to launch the raid, as well as daily HM FP's and the EOT weekly running HM LI for BH comms really is pointless as you dont need them. But I can understand the importance of earning the extra 8 comms for doing the HM LI weekly as well as the 5 you get from the daily T2 FP's for players that dont raid.
Again speaking for myslef HM LI offers no incentive to return to it, apart from currently helping fellow guild members get the Aratech Ice and I am looking forward to not having to do that anymore.

As i've said before I do feel for the players who are the ones that would benefit from Hm LI the most and yet are struggling to complete it.