The 1.3 patch had a very clear aim - to improve AoE threat across the board. While some might argue it wasn't even needed in the first place, some might add that holding threat wasn't hard before, but I think the priniciple is sound (the amount it was increased by is debatable, but that's for another discussion).

 

But as often is the case with the sweeping changes, other abilities get caught in the crossfire, so to speak.

 

Guardian Slash/Crushing Blow is a high cost, long cooldown 31 point ability that was previously one of the main reasons to spend 31 points in the Defense/Immortal trees. Those trees are known to contain at least several filler abilities (e.g. Dust Storm/Quake, Courage/Revenge, Shield Specialization, Command/Thrown Gauntlet, Inner Peace/Dark Blood).

 

However, with the 1.3 patch change, the ability became nigh useless.

1) Long cooldown.

2) High cost.

3) High up in tree.

4) Not much better than Force Sweep/Smash.

5) Very short range.

 

I think it goes without saying that a cornerstone ability such as Guardian Slash/Crushing Blow must be desirable and class-defining. It currently isn't, forcing players to spec hybrid instead; something you discouraged from the start.

 

The ability should be restored to pre 1.3 status - and if there was any concern Guardians would have too high singe target threat then simply reduce the threat it generates from high to medium.

 

While it may not seem like a big deal from a PvE perspective, it makes Defense/Immortal trees obsolete in a PvP environment - and it should be noted that Immortal/Defense had the lowest damage among tanks even before 1.3; now it's at the rock bottom.

On the off chance that the developers actually read this thread, can I also add...

 

 

If you *do* keep it as is, could you PLEASE alter the knockback/stun effect on normal/weak mobs to have them FALL DOWN or just stand there stunned instead of the current approach which FREQUENTLY KNOCKS THE TARGET OUT OF MELEE RANGE. Sure, maybe the other mobs affected could be knocked back, but it's a HUGE ANNOYANCE to have your current target suddenly be out of melee range because you used a skill you're supposed to be using.

 

 

And I'll second the "too long a CD/too small an area of effect/too little utility" comment of the OP. I like it in principle but it's not one of those "must have" things in its present form.

Yeah, I would have to totally agree. I mean, we already have 2 abilities that are useless in PVE Ops and PVP with the kick and pummel strike. Then the two abilities that even did a decent amount of damage get nerfed. We do the lowest damage of any tank class, we don't have the best mitigation, and I seriously doubt that we generate the highest threat either from what I've seen before 1.3 and after. I'm starting to wonder what our niche really is in this game. There is not one desirable quality that puts up above any other tank in any category. If we were given the choice to rechoose a class and AC, I honestly wonder if anyone would want to play a Juggernaut if they were say the main tank for their guild. There is nothing that makes us stand out other than our deficiencies in relation to the other tanking classes.

I fully support your points. GS definitely need to deal more damage. Its a joke right now to put 31 points into defense and get an almost useless skill.

I fully support your points. GS definitely need to deal more damage. Its a joke right now to put 31 points into defense and get an almost useless skill.

 

Agreed.

It's not just guardian slash that needs to be reversed. There were, prior to 1.3 being released, 3 threads in the PTS forum all detailing at length the shortcomings of the Guardian defense tree. One of the threads was over 50 pages in length, and contained remarkably little in the way of "Imma QQ :mad:" but a great deal of "Why....this makes no sense? :confused:" Guardians were already bottom of the stack as far where DPS is concerned. All those threads were ignored by BW and deleted when 1.3 was released.

 

Many of the posts suggested reasonable measures to adjust the skills (especially guardian slash) or even revert it to pre-1.3. As it stands, especially in conjunction with the change to Single Saber Mastery, Guardian Slash is not a skill I'm prepared to invest 31 points in defense to achieve. This is not only because guardian slash itself is weak in it's current incarnation, but the whole top 3 tiers of the defense tree need a serious re-evaluation.

 

 

• Command is really weak, especially since the CD redux on Challenging Call was removed. TBH the effect should be combined with Solidified Force and the damn thing replaced with something more useful (especially since Solid Force lost the Hilt Strike focus cost benefit which is no longer necessary).
  
• Hilt Strike was nerfed as well... sure the focus cost was removed but correctly specced it was only costing 1 focus point per minute anyway. Big deal. I'll call a nerf a nerf.
  
• Shield Specialization ...4% shield chance... wow. If it was double that, with an additional 8% absorb I might think about it. If it had some chance to cancel out crits... if it made shields in some way useful against the majority of damage types that get slung at guardians in PvP then I might think about it.
  
• Cyclonic Sweep merely compensates for the Soresu form reduction in focus gain /yawn
  
• Inner Peace... why? it's considerably less effective than Commanding Awe, especially as the latter reduces the CD of Awe
  
• Guardian Slash. Revert to 1.2 damage levels and / or make it somehow more useful in PvP. Add an interrupt / knockdown to players who have 5 stacks of Sunder Armor on them. Reduce the CD timer to match OH Slash.
  DO SOMETHING to make this skill worthy of being a 31 point cost.
  

 

Edited June 29, 2012 by Cybermeister

change it back. or atleast make more powerful.

You have my vote for increased damage.

 

After 1.3 my defense spec Guardian takes 1/3 longer to kill things, but can't outlast the incoming damage. I have even encountered PVE mobs that heal that I almost can't take because I don't produce damage fast enough to take them out before they heal each other to infinity. I am sure some of this is adjustment to all the shifting, but it is noticeably different.

Signed. I shouldn't have to spec hybrid in order to enjoy both PvP and PvE.

 

Either give me the same damage I had in 1.2 as an Immortal tank, or make duel spec come out soon so I can just revert to 31 immortal for PvE and hybrid for PvP.

These whole 1.3 changes to the defense tree of Guardians and Juggernauts make no sense at all.

 

With 1.2, our damage has been increased. Now, it got decreased below the level of pre 1.2. Where is the logic here?

I know there are pretty much of those people out there, complaining about tanks demanding more damage. Sometimes, I have the impression they think tanks shouldn't do any damage at all, but this is not the topic and can be discussed separately.

What is the subject here, is Guardians and Juggernauts doing far less damage than all the other tank classes, while not gaining anything in addition therefore. So it has to be adjusted now in the manner that all tank classes do equal damage in their tanking builds. As said, how much the damage should be is another subject, even though I found the Guardian/Juggernaut damage in 1.2 was fine and in my opinion all tanking classes should be adjusted to something around that level.

 

In addition, I think the buffs for threat generation and group tanking were not necessary. It shouldn't be too easy holding threat and comparing the required skill level for playing a tank with that of a healer, I think the healer is far more demanding and even some damage dealers are, too (all measured with the threat generation pre 1.3!).

Furthermore, I like the circumstance that there are classes who fit better in doing a specified job than other classes. So, if Shadow and Assassin tanks are better for group tanking, but not as good as Guardians and Juggernauts in single target tanking, so be it. It is exactly what makes the classes special and interesting. Each class should have their positives and negatives and in every flashpoint and operation should be enemies that fit to those different play styles of the tanking classes, so that boss A is easier with tank A, while boss B is more difficult with tank A, but would be easier with tank B. Of course, it shouldn't be too difficult, but a bit challenging, if playing with the tanking class not perfectly fitting to the boss.

 

I think the same design philosophy should be used for damage dealers and healers, instead of making them too similar, but that is another subject, again.

 

So the conclusion now for Guardians/Juggernauts, please Bioware, revert all those changes or at least give us back our old Guardian Slash/Crushing Blow, which was fine. The new one is completely useless, because most of the time there is no enemy in range that would be affected by the area effect and in pvp it is even more useless, because it does low damage and armor penetration is availaible in abundance in the defense tree, now.

 

Please consider those design suggestions and don't destroy your good class design by listening to all the crybabies out there, not able to play their class as intended and spamming the forums to death. If you follow that path, the result will be no class differentiation, boring easiness and finally a dead game.

/signed and more

Agreed

 

/signed

I was super excited to see the changes to Threat in this patch and I feel it was needed with no way to see Aggro tables, like a threat meter or anything. Gaudians/Juggernauts have the worst end of this having the lowest damage and threat of the tanking classes. Some had no issues with threat prior to 1.3 and some did. I'm a experienced end game tank from other MMOs and I would have to say that for Guardians and Juggernauts, this game has been one fo the hardest to learn threat management on.

 

Having said that, I was not happy of some of the Trade-offs like the above mention change to Guardian Slash. I've tried the hybrid spec before and I'm not fond of it for PVE at all. It really doesn't fit my play style at all. The change to Guardian Slash seem to have alot of people going back to the Hybrid specs again. I'm still trying things to see if there is a real place for it if used a different way.

 

Another Trade off was the Nerf to Gaurdian/Juggernaut damage output acrossed the board..... WHY!? They already had the weakest damage and threat output then any other tanking class. This change was completely unnecessary and flat-out stupid beyond words!

 

I also agree with Lorismain about the being knocked around issue. This is super annoying as a melee tank. you can counter this with Unremitting in the Vigilance tree, but once again it kinda force you to go Hybrid spec. I would love it if the deffence tree had a talent in there somewhere on this same level or to really tone down this effect all together, like maybe after the force one you're immune for a few seconds.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Prowl_VF-IS

It's not just guardian slash that needs to be reversed. There were, prior to 1.3 being released, 3 threads in the PTS forum all detailing at length the shortcomings of the Guardian defense tree.

 

I very much agree; but a relatively simple change of reverting Guardian Slash/Crushing Blow to its pre 1.3 status would be a genuine gesture of good faith from them - a sign that they are willing to improve the Defense/Immortal tree - which does require massive adjustments.

/signed, /signed, /signed

 

Just started playing a Guardian Def Tank because I was hoping to improve and broaden my skill levels in this game. Tanking is supposed to be a vital melee based roll in any group. Oh well looks like I will just go back to being a Healer & DPS. I can just see the chat windows now......... (General: Xxxxxxxx LFTank Def Guardians need not apply )

Edited July 12, 2012 by WhosYrDaddy
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