1.3 Juggernaut Changes

I would summarize the changes as follows:

1.)Fun aoe splash damage and knockback with crushing blow which might be useful for trash mobs and a few select flashpoint encounters (the kaon under siege trash mob "boss), but is utterly useless for end game single target tanking and represents a mere novelty unworthy of a 31 point talent.

2.)Single target threat boost that's entirely unnecessary (if you can't hold single target threat in this game with ANY tank, there's a gear or skill problem), and brings with it horrible nerfs to crushing blow and backhand (which seems like it's taken a 40% hit to damage).

3.)Backhand doesn't cost rage. Who cares? It's on a minute cooldown ... we needed another big hitting ability, not a damage nerf when we already had the lowest dps amongst tanks. And if you're that far up into immortal, you probably took revenge and sweeping whatever it is, which means you have zero rage problems. None at all. What you have is a ton of rage and nothing to spend it on but vicious slash, which by the way, now hits a single target for about as much as crushing blow.

4.)The change to single saber mastery hurts our white damage output, which sucks, as we do primarily white damage. What's even worse, we can't skip it because 3 of blade barricade's defense boosts have been moved to a dps tree skill. Yay. Six points to get the same benefit we got before with three. And don't tell me single saber mastery also gives us better aoe threat ... what good is aoe threat when our aoe damage abilities are so small in range? If you needed to tank a group, it could be managed with skill, plus good groups use cc on high level mobs anyway. Aoe threat improvements do nothing for end game tanking.

5.)The new smash ability is awesome. So. awesome. Even spending one point provides a huge benefit to aoe tanking and lets you get the armor debuff on a mob or single target up within the first few seconds. In fact, it's so great, it renders crushing blow redundant. Does the same thing, shorter cooldown, less rage, and basically the same damage PLUS it's pure yellow aoe damage, no need for five stacks to trigger.

6.)They fixed Sonic Barrier. I think. I'm really not sure. It's a useful ability. Too bad the skills that buff it (shortened cooldown, bleed) are in other skill tree(s).

CONCLUSION

The immortal tree is utterly and completely broken. You can go hybrid and pick up most of the tanking stuff, but the problem is that all the rage generators are high in the immortal tree ... the skill level required to tank with a hybrid spec is FAR greater because rage management is so much more difficult. If you're not getting your force scream, impale, or execute off as soon as they are off cooldown due to rage issues then you should have just stuck with immortal.

Sure, hybrid tanking is viable (and, frankly, better on paper), but we shouldn't pretend that it isn't EXTREMELY more difficult in certain areas ... particularly if you take impale and its four rage cost in an attempt to preserve some measure of dps. Basically with hybrid, if you don't know your rotations, you're going to be rage starved and ineffective a lot of the time. That's really the only downside to hybrid (as it does more damage and is actually tankier), but it's a big one. Given the low damage output in the immortal tree, and the difficulty of rage management if you go hybrid, I see effective juggernaut tanking as having a high barrier to entry at the moment.

Your two choices with 1.3 if you want to tank juggernaut are:

1.)A severely gimped (in terms of damage) immortal specced melee tank that has 1.3 buffed in useless areas, but which has no rage issues and possesses basically the exact same survivability as 1.2, or

2.)A hybrid tank that at least preserves, but probably improves, upon the damage output of a 1.2 immortal specced tank, has better survivability than a 1.3 immortal specced tank, but which is going to have a very high energy and skill requirement in terms of rage management.

These are not good choices.

I would summarize the changes as follows:

1.)Fun aoe splash damage and knockback with crushing blow which might be useful for trash mobs and a few select flashpoint encounters (the kaon under siege trash mob "boss), but is utterly useless for end game single target tanking and represents a mere novelty unworthy of a 31 point talent.

2.)Single target threat boost that's entirely unnecessary (if you can't hold single target threat in this game with ANY tank, there's a gear or skill problem), and brings with it horrible nerfs to crushing blow and backhand (which seems like it's taken a 40% hit to damage).

3.)Backhand doesn't cost rage. Who cares? It's on a minute cooldown ... we needed another big hitting ability, not a damage nerf when we already had the lowest dps amongst tanks. And if you're that far up into immortal, you probably took revenge and sweeping whatever it is, which means you have zero rage problems. None at all. What you have is a ton of rage and nothing to spend it on but vicious slash, which by the way, now hits a single target for about as much as crushing blow.

4.)The change to single saber mastery hurts our white damage output, which sucks, as we do primarily white damage. What's even worse, we can't skip it because 3 of blade barricade's defense boosts have been moved to a dps tree skill. Yay. Six points to get the same benefit we got before with three. And don't tell me single saber mastery also gives us better aoe threat ... what good is aoe threat when our aoe damage abilities are so small in range? If you needed to tank a group, it could be managed with skill, plus good groups use cc on high level mobs anyway. Aoe threat improvements do nothing for end game tanking.

5.)The new smash ability is awesome. So. awesome. Even spending one point provides a huge benefit to aoe tanking and lets you get the armor debuff on a mob or single target up within the first few seconds. In fact, it's so great, it renders crushing blow redundant. Does the same thing, shorter cooldown, less rage, and basically the same damage PLUS it's pure yellow aoe damage, no need for five stacks to trigger.

6.)They fixed Sonic Barrier. I think. I'm really not sure. It's a useful ability. Too bad the skills that buff it (shortened cooldown, bleed) are in other skill tree(s).

CONCLUSION

The immortal tree is utterly and completely broken. You can go hybrid and pick up most of the tanking stuff, but the problem is that all the rage generators are high in the immortal tree ... the skill level required to tank with a hybrid spec is FAR greater because rage management is so much more difficult. If you're not getting your force scream, impale, or execute off as soon as they are off cooldown due to rage issues then you should have just stuck with immortal.

Sure, hybrid tanking is viable (and, frankly, better on paper), but we shouldn't pretend that it isn't EXTREMELY more difficult in certain areas ... particularly if you take impale and its four rage cost in an attempt to preserve some measure of dps. Basically with hybrid, if you don't know your rotations, you're going to be rage starved and ineffective a lot of the time. That's really the only downside to hybrid (as it does more damage and is actually tankier), but it's a big one. Given the low damage output in the immortal tree, and the difficulty of rage management if you go hybrid, I see effective juggernaut tanking as having a high barrier to entry at the moment.

Your two choices with 1.3 if you want to tank juggernaut are:

1.)A severely gimped (in terms of damage) immortal specced melee tank that has 1.3 buffed in useless areas, but which has no rage issues and possesses basically the exact same survivability as 1.2, or

2.)A hybrid tank that at least preserves, but probably improves, upon the damage output of a 1.2 immortal specced tank, has better survivability than a 1.3 immortal specced tank, but which is going to have a very high energy and skill requirement in terms of rage management.

These are not good choices.

You do not have better survivability as hybrid. That notion is ridiculous. Tank DPS shouldn't be required to beat any enrage currently in the game, the hybrid's better damage is pointless.

Well using your logic - if better damage isn't important, skills hitting diminishing returns and useless abilities from Immortal tree aren't important either. As you said before - we start to overgear the current content anyway. Also why do you say you don't have better survivability in hybrid - do you have any logs to prove it? I already tanked EC HM in it and had no issues whatsoever. You have to be careful with rage which, frankly, makes things somewhat interesting in comparison to current Immortal idiot-mode.

That being said, both those specs are broken ATM, hybrid is unintended and immortal is a joke. Boring, broken, testament to incompetence and listening to moaning crowds.

^ This ^

A good question because even though Chilling Scream being free is nice, its not worth alone 2 points in the Immortal tree.

You tanking in HM EC doesn't mean it has better survivability.

Define which skills hit DR please?

You do not have better survivability as hybrid. That notion is ridiculous. Tank DPS shouldn't be required to beat any enrage currently in the game, the hybrid's better damage is pointless.

While enjoying most of your posts i'm confused about the statement above.

The only talents a hybrid 18/23 build can not get are shield specialisation and inner peace , they are i.m.o. fairly weak talents to begin with and the trade off you get in a hybrid spec more than makes up for them.

Shield Specialisation is a good skill to have when your leveling/still upgrading most of your gear - once your mostly blackhole you will have more than enough points in shielding to make it a fairly pointless investment

Inner Peace is one of the worst talents high up on any of the tanking trees , a pitiful 4 percent from internal and elemental damage.

In comparison a hybrid tank build gets a great skill in commanding awe - a flat 4 percent reduction from all types of damage and a 15 percent damage reduction every 45 seconds( this works fairly well in conjunction with taunt and the flat agro increase of 1.3 )

On top of that a hybrid can produce faster blade baricades than a pure 31pt defence build.

I just don't understand how you are maintaining that the 31pt defence build has actually more survivability .

The only real problem with the Hybrid is occasional focus starvation if you mess up your attacks , but as you seem to profess that a tank does not need to do any real dps this should not be problem.

This post is not an attack and i'm sorry if it comes across as such , I personally hate the animation for overhead slash and would gladly respec back into a full 31pt defence build but the top tiers of the defence tree are extremely poor and i.m.o next to useless in comparison to the options available in the other trees.

I'd also dispute that patch 1.3 has improved the overall tanking experience , the flat agro increase has i.m.o only succeeded in dumbing down the overall skill level required ( not much was needed before but its even less now )

Sorry for the guardian terms in a Sith Forum but i'm at work and i couldn't remember the sith talents.