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Is a diverse raid composition required for successful HM/NMM raiding post 1.3?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Is a diverse raid composition required for successful HM/NMM raiding post 1.3?

Woetoo's Avatar


Woetoo
06.28.2012 , 07:24 AM | #1
This thought came up in another thread. But that thread was about enrage timers, whereas I wanted to address the issues of raiding with what is beginning to look like a sub-optimal raid composition.

With 1.3, several buffs and debuffs no longer stack with each other. The patch notes read :

  • Several major buffs and debuffs with the same effect no longer stack with one another. This system affects debuffs like armor reduction, healing reduction, and accuracy reduction (through abilities like Tracer Missile, Flourish Shot, and Diversion). Buffs, like armor increases, healing received increases, and damage dealt increases (through skills like Force Shelter, Kolto Residue, and Bloodtirst) are also affected. This system specifically causes only the highest of any given non-stacking buff or debuff to apply.

Currently our 8man raid team play with 3 of our 4 DPS all being Mercenary Bounty Hunters. We didn't stack it that way for any obvious benefit, it was just the people we got and up to 1.3 that wasn't a problem. Last night we hit a lot of enrage timers in KP HM on bosses we previously would have considered to be on farm.

An unintended consequence of our raid composition (I think) is that the Heat Signature from Tracer Missile was stacking 4% armour reduction up to 5 times per player and with 3 Mercenaries in the raid... is that 4% x 5 x 3 = 60% armour reduction?

I can see that isn't intentional and that the 1.3 change "fixes" it so that doesn't exceed the 20% originally intended.

Except... we don't have all those other classes to provide the "other" buffs and debuffs to boost raidwide DPS.

So my question is... can we continue to be an viable endgame raid team without a more diverse setup than we have now? Did this change mean we NEED an operative + assassin + merc + marauder (or some other diverse combination of AC's, buffs and debuff) to compete effectively at a high level?

I get it that we're not as overpowered as we used to be pre-1.3. But have we gimped ourselves by not having a well rounded raid team?

I'm not an exceptional theory crafter. I'm not even a mediocre one. Am I missing something obvious here? Did I somehow miss the point?

Edit: Ah ha... I've found http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/opcomp/index.php - time to have a play.

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I actually laughed out loud.

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Foenixz's Avatar


Foenixz
06.28.2012 , 07:43 AM | #2
I would it would be help to diversify but some of the hard mode encounters favor not specific clasess; but roles until you get geared enough.
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Woetoo's Avatar


Woetoo
06.28.2012 , 08:51 AM | #3
Okay.

There don't seem to be as many raidwide buffs and debuffs as I thought there might be. Most the buffs appear to be covered by simply having enough high level alts.

So to the debuffs...


Accuracy (reduced NPC accuracy for 18 seconds).

  • Powertech (Shield Tech spec) : Oil Slick
  • Sith Juggernaut (Immortal spec) : Quake
  • Sith Assassin (Darkness spec) : Discharge


Armor (reduce NPC armor by 5 x 4% for 15 seconds).



Damage Reduction (reduced NPC damage for 15 seconds).

  • Sith Inquisitor (Darkness spec) : Wither
  • Powertech (Shield Tech spec): Combust


If that's the case (and I've only cut and paste from the mmo-mechanics page), it doesn't appear we're being overly disadvantaged by being a largely Bounty Hunter raid group.

Is this list complete? Are there other class debuffs that would directly affect raidwide DPS?

Maybe things aren't as bad as I initially thought.

This line intentionally left blank
Darth Baras: I do not appreciate your doubt. I expect unwavering respect at all times.
I actually laughed out loud.

My SW:TOR Passions : SWTOR is F2P in name only - Varied Choices Within FPs/Ops - Cross Faction Guilds - Better Guild List Panel

Mawduce's Avatar


Mawduce
06.28.2012 , 09:13 AM | #4
bring a sent or mara and everything else is whatever as long as a jug isnt tanking.
I was made to fly, and you were made to die...

djrtykow's Avatar


djrtykow
06.28.2012 , 09:44 AM | #5
We ran into issues after 1.2, but not 1.3. We did have to change our raid composition quite a bit for NMM KP, which we run weekly. We used to run with:

(2) Sorc Healers
(1) Jugg Tank
(1) Assassin Tank
(2) Merc DPS
(1) Sniper DPS
(1) Sorc DPS

After 1.2, it changed to the following:

(1) Sorc Healer
(1) Merc Healer
(2) Jugg Tanks
(3) Merc DPS
(1) Sniper DPS

We haven't run into many issues as far as multiple debuffs not stacking anymore. Bosses do die a bit slower, but not much. We can still finish the Op in 45-50 minutes with this setup.


P.S.
As you can see, we have never used any sort of Melee DPS. We use parsers for every raid to watch everyone's DPS. We attempted to run a few things with replacing a Merc DPS with a Melee DPS (Marauder) and the Melee DPS was quite a bite lower than what our Merc was capable of bringing to the table with the same gear tiers.
Perfection. You are looking at it.

Amerond's Avatar


Amerond
06.28.2012 , 10:11 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by djrtykow View Post
P.S.
As you can see, we have never used any sort of Melee DPS. We use parsers for every raid to watch everyone's DPS. We attempted to run a few things with replacing a Merc DPS with a Melee DPS (Marauder) and the Melee DPS was quite a bite lower than what our Merc was capable of bringing to the table with the same gear tiers.
Bad marauder...

epicfear's Avatar


epicfear
06.28.2012 , 01:02 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Mawduce View Post
bring a sent or mara and everything else is whatever as long as a jug isnt tanking.
as a jugg tank, I take offense to that.

a maurauder crumples if they stand in fire for a few seconds, a juggernaut doesn't go down if they get three champions stunlocking them.

because seriously. screw maurauders.
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ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
06.28.2012 , 02:11 PM | #8
While the lost armor reduction sucks your Mercs all got, assuming they specced for it, a 30% boost to armor penetration for Full Auto and HiB (I believe the Imp equivalent is Unload and Rail Shot respectively), so I feel like your mercs should suffer LESS from the nerf to armor reduction debuffs than other classes.

DPS received a minor nerf across the board with this change for any raid that brought diversified classes for the different armor debuffs. DPS classes with no inherent armor penetration took a bigger hit.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

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nezitx's Avatar


nezitx
06.28.2012 , 03:05 PM | #9
I thought that to prior to 1.3, debuffs from the same class wouldn't stack. And in 1.3, the same debuffs from different classes wouldn't stack. I could be wrong about that though. Either way, if you have enrage problems it may be more due to your players/gear than the class makeup. But being heavy on one class doesn't usually help, because you lack less toys.

We've been running:
2x Sorc Healer (one really wants to level an operative though)
1x Marauder
1x Assassin DPS
1x Jugg Tank
1x Assassin Tank
2x Sniper

I'd prefer 1 less sniper for a BH (stealth detection thingy in EC) and 1 less sorcerer healer for operative.

Really though, this game has really removed most of what makes classes unique - which is good if you don't want certain classes to be must-haves for raiding, but bad because it makes the strategy shallower.
Nezy - 50 Marauder (main)
Nez - 50 Operative (alt)
Nezix - First 50 Sorcerer on Vrook Lamar. (retired)