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MMO's and the players duty


xandax's Avatar


xandax
06.14.2012 , 02:52 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Novamonkey View Post
There are many things about this game that did not live up to what I was expecting but there are still many things that have far exceeded what I was expecting. There is a lot of hate being thrown at Bioware in regards to what they didnt do with the game and so on.. I would like to offer an alternative outlook on this that might help change some people's outlook on the future of this game.

A developer can only provide the structure of a game but it is the player base that creates the living breathing in game world. I came from old School MMO's like EQ and SWG where the graphic engines were fairly poor but the sense of community was what made the game thrive. Alot of people in this game have come to expect that certain things should require no effort at all such as finding a group. Well in SWG there was no group finder except general chat and let me tell you the groups formed by those means were much more spontaneous and formed much stronger bonds with other players then any automated group finder will ever do.

I wish that all the old school gamers would remember what we had to do to make a game great back in the day and all the newer gamers would stop demanding things be thrown into a game right from launch that as history has shown are really not needed to make a game great. Community and really knowing those on your server is what makes an MMO Thrive...


I know that up until recent server xfers most servers have been barely able to have anything that resembles a community but as we start to see more Heavy and Very Heavy servers I hope that these newly formed communities can stop throwing knives at Bioware and start making the game what they want it to be by building an in game world they want by interacting with the others playing
And in the old days the roads where paved with gold and unicorns were roaming free.

What made games 'thrive' back then in the old days was as much that 'MMOs where new and niche. Few players versus what we see today. Few games compared to what we see today.

Now that most of us have years of playing this genre we know what we want and there's plenty of competition on the market that if one game doesn't deliver - it's easy to just jump to the next in line.
Now that we know it's not fun to stand around for an hour spamming the chat channel does not mean we socialize less. Now that we know it's not fun to loose a level of XP because a mob aggros us and we lag out, does not mean gaming has declined.

Groups weren't automatically 'stronger' or formed 'spontaneous' back in the good ole days either.
I remember vividly in DAoC meeting up at a designated grind spot - get written on a list for when I could join - and once it was time it was just hours grind with no communication only to part afterwards never to speak together again.
And I can promise you - graphic engines have absolutely nothing to do with this, so why it's even posted is .... strange.

A reason why you might think fewer people 'socialize' today is because many of us 'old school' already have communities to be a part of. We know people. We know what to do in a game. We don't feel like standing around for an hour spamming LFG. We join up in existing communities from the start, so we don't need to 'find new friends' to the same degree we did 'back in the days'.
It's the same as in real life. Once you progress through real life you pick up friends along the way. The same goes in computer games. But the more friends you have, the less likely you are to socialize with everybody new you come along.

Nostalgia and the memory of something 'new and fresh' is a very powerful emotion. And this 'everything was better in the old days' is very counter productive towards new games and new people in these 'communities' of MMOs. Nostalgia is always number 1 threat towards any new game.
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent.

curtkram's Avatar


curtkram
06.14.2012 , 02:54 PM | #12
I don't have that much experience with MMOs, but from I've seen Bioware is trying to kill the game. You're not going to create a strong community of people grouping together when there are 10 people on your server. Granted that's going to be fixed in a week or two, but we're still left with an inflexible development team that doesn't seem to be attending to their game's needs.

I'm left with characters across 3 servers. I tried to create groups and build communities across all three. What I'm left with is a sense that whenever I put in enough time and effort to make a good community, or anything else for that matter, I have to give it all up and start over. How is that going to be different going forward? I suppose I can move them to 3 separate populated servers, pick the one I like, and start over again. But giving up and starting over again isn't fun even if it's on a full server. And the real problem is that we have the same development team that is still too slow to see problems and too slow to fix them. So what changes now? In another month or two something else will go wrong and Bioware will refuse to fix it. Maybe by that time they will have a microtransaction store set up and we'll get to pay extra for the fix.

Beyorn's Avatar


Beyorn
06.14.2012 , 02:56 PM | #13
Prexus Player Here !

When I see this topic discussed one thing I never see are people talking about how much different the player base is today than it was back then.

People would help you and answer questions in general chat. If you asked for help with a mob you usually got a couple of people that would pipe in and say they would help. If you had never been to a place before you could ask your group and they would tell you the ins and outs of the place. I have met some really nice people playing Eq1 and DAoC. I keep in touch with most of them still.

Now it is all about gearscore and efficiency. How fast can something be done. People donít even talk in groups anymore. I think the player base as a whole has changed (not all). I donít know when it happened but when you group with people and all they have to do is talk crap about someone not knowing this or that or talking smack about gear there really is no need to group anymore outside of your circle of friends. That is really sad to say but it is easier to do that than to have to put up with some peoples poop.

Now if my friends are not on I donít group period. I would rather solo than have to deal with it. I donít think we will ever have the same communities that we had back then. I think those days are long gone and lost to the interwebs ;(.

Ngamok's Avatar


Ngamok
06.14.2012 , 02:58 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by xandax View Post
And in the old days the roads where paved with gold and unicorns were roaming free.

What made games 'thrive' back then in the old days was as much that 'MMOs where new and niche. Few players versus what we see today. Few games compared to what we see today.

Now that most of us have years of playing this genre we know what we want and there's plenty of competition on the market that if one game doesn't deliver - it's easy to just jump to the next in line.
Now that we know it's not fun to stand around for an hour spamming the chat channel does not mean we socialize less. Now that we know it's not fun to loose a level of XP because a mob aggros us and we lag out, does not mean gaming has declined.

Groups weren't automatically 'stronger' or formed 'spontaneous' back in the good ole days either.
I remember vividly in DAoC meeting up at a designated grind spot - get written on a list for when I could join - and once it was time it was just hours grind with no communication only to part afterwards never to speak together again.
And I can promise you - graphic engines have absolutely nothing to do with this, so why it's even posted is .... strange.

A reason why you might think fewer people 'socialize' today is because many of us 'old school' already have communities to be a part of. We know people. We know what to do in a game. We don't feel like standing around for an hour spamming LFG. We join up in existing communities from the start, so we don't need to 'find new friends' to the same degree we did 'back in the days'.
It's the same as in real life. Once you progress through real life you pick up friends along the way. The same goes in computer games. But the more friends you have, the less likely you are to socialize with everybody new you come along.

Nostalgia and the memory of something 'new and fresh' is a very powerful emotion. And this 'everything was better in the old days' is very counter productive towards new games and new people in these 'communities' of MMOs. Nostalgia is always number 1 threat towards any new game.
I can tell you that Nostalgia and Strong Community ties is why The Fatman is thriving. Lot of us old time SWG Bloodfin players went there and brought all our friends that we met along the way on both sides.
Ngamok 50 Vanguard / Koreth 48 Gunslinger / Aletheia 22 Sentinel - The Fatman
Ngamok 50 Operative - The Sword of Ajunta Pall
Ngamok 27 Sith Juggernaut - Canderous Ordo

damdragon's Avatar


damdragon
06.14.2012 , 02:59 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by xandax View Post
And in the old days the roads where paved with gold and unicorns were roaming free.

What made games 'thrive' back then in the old days was as much that 'MMOs where new and niche. Few players versus what we see today. Few games compared to what we see today.

Now that most of us have years of playing this genre we know what we want and there's plenty of competition on the market that if one game doesn't deliver - it's easy to just jump to the next in line.
Now that we know it's not fun to stand around for an hour spamming the chat channel does not mean we socialize less. Now that we know it's not fun to loose a level of XP because a mob aggros us and we lag out, does not mean gaming has declined.

Groups weren't automatically 'stronger' or formed 'spontaneous' back in the good ole days either.
I remember vividly in DAoC meeting up at a designated grind spot - get written on a list for when I could join - and once it was time it was just hours grind with no communication only to part afterwards never to speak together again.
And I can promise you - graphic engines have absolutely nothing to do with this, so why it's even posted is .... strange.

A reason why you might think fewer people 'socialize' today is because many of us 'old school' already have communities to be a part of. We know people. We know what to do in a game. We don't feel like standing around for an hour spamming LFG. We join up in existing communities from the start, so we don't need to 'find new friends' to the same degree we did 'back in the days'.
It's the same as in real life. Once you progress through real life you pick up friends along the way. The same goes in computer games. But the more friends you have, the less likely you are to socialize with everybody new you come along.

Nostalgia and the memory of something 'new and fresh' is a very powerful emotion. And this 'everything was better in the old days' is very counter productive towards new games and new people in these 'communities' of MMOs. Nostalgia is always number 1 threat towards any new game.
I would have to disagree with you. You're underplaying the importance of a strong community oriented game, and the impact that can have on the individual. You are right that those games fill a niche. And the gaming community has not come to a resolution between the super strong community aspects of SWG and the action packed endgame content of wow. To date the genre has moved from the former to the ladder. I for one am keeping my eye out for a game that bridges the two.

damdragon's Avatar


damdragon
06.14.2012 , 03:15 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Beyorn View Post

Now it is all about gearscore and efficiency. How fast can something be done. People donít even talk in groups anymore. I think the player base as a whole has changed (not all). I donít know when it happened but when you group with people and all they have to do is talk crap about someone not knowing this or that or talking smack about gear there really is no need to group anymore outside of your circle of friends. That is really sad to say but it is easier to do that than to have to put up with some peoples poop.
You bring up some good points about how the player base has been 'allowed' to treat one another in this fashion.
I use the word allowed because again in refer to SWG. In SWG you had 1 character unless you unlocked a jedi. Unless you wanted to reroll your character you didn't act like a douche, and it was actually beneficial to help out other players. In turn they would help you out. That wall of anonymity (such as changing characters or changing a characters name) allows people to behave in negative ways with little consequence or impact to there overall game experience.

I played wow as well and specifically remember a player who had ninjaed the Ony mount, when it was a big deal. The guy was harassed in general chat and boycotted any run he attempted to create for weeks. He was stubborn enough to not change his name and eventually left the server. This is a extreme example especially for wow, and was only possible because the guy refused to change his name. Now he eventually was able to move and start anew with his mount. On a game like SWG he wouldn't have ninjaed in the first place because he literally couldn't have escaped the community back-lash from his actions. Unfortunately people will act poorly if they think no one is looking. And to have a respectful community people need to know they can be held accountable.

Serenthius's Avatar


Serenthius
06.14.2012 , 05:38 PM | #17
((Feel free to skip to the bottom. Most of this is just me ranting about all the idiots. The whole point to this is actually AT the bottom. I apologize if I actually offend anyone. ))
Christ, will you people shut up about older games? About the 'Good old days'? I grew up playing RTS (Real-time Strategy) games such as Starcraft and Warcraft (Yes, up until a few years ago I was a 'If you don't like Blizzard Games, you suck' person. Obviously that's changed. I see people blaming Bioware. I see people blaming the players (Except themselves, because all they want is the 'Good old days'). Well guess what. Those days are gone, and they will likely never come back. People are complaining about the current Server Transfer when it's what most of you wanted. People want communities. It is DAMN hard to make good communities on nearly-dead servers. Unless you actually make games, you don't have ANYTHING to complain about. You want a game that YOU like? Go to college/university and make it. Or be like me, and play what I'm given.

Some of you are saying that you brought a lot of your friends over from other, older MMO's and how you still talk to them and play with them today. That's all fine and dandy, yeah. What about those who didn't have such great experiences? You only play with the people you know, and forget about all the new people. And yet, I've been playing Star Wars: The Old Republic for... Roughly three weeks, tops. I've made DOZENS of friends. Somebody needs help on a Heroic? I help them, even if I'm too high to get any benefit, or have already done the mission for the day. Most of you are no better than the 'I want it now!' people, or 'I don't wanna work for it!' people. You don't want to actually work on getting a community up. You just want to get to a server, and join one right away.

I lost topic in regards to my first paragraph. As I was saying there, Bioware did exactly what you wanted. They made it so servers could be full. Now people complain about queuing times, or lag because of all the new people. People complain that they can't get their name, or their legacy. Too bad. Use your imagination and make a new one. You don't have to be a role player to have a cool name. You don't have to be a hardcore PvPer to enjoy it.

All in all, the point is, everybody is to blame. It's Bioware's fault that some of us can't even play the game because there's either to many people, or to few. And it's our fault for constantly ************ and complaining to Bioware that they ****ed up. Groupfinders ruin games? No. It's the people who ruins games. Like someone in here said, it's OUR job to reach out to others, to build strong communities. Why should we expect other people to try and be friends with us, if we're not willing to put forth the same effort? I'm done my rant now. Again, sorry.

havok_bloodcraft's Avatar


havok_bloodcraft
06.14.2012 , 08:36 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Skidrowbro View Post
It's not the "I want it now", it's more along the lines of "I don't want to work for it" crowd.
It's not the "I don't want to work for it" crowd. It's the "give it to me now for no effort or I will rage quit " crowd.