Toth & Zorn HM still overtuned.

Its not over-tuned, you are simply failing the coordination check.

Look, you push them through the phases by static HP hits at every 10%.

100% - Encounter begins.
90% - Jump
80% - Throw phase
70% - Jump
60% - Ground AoE Phase
Repeat.

If they are jumping in the middle of the Throw Phase, it is because you pushed them too hard with your DPS. Throttle your DPS and hold at 1% - 3% before the next push. When Zorn begins to cast the actual throw, then crank the pain back out again. It is a coordination check, man.

You don't need a gear step up - you aren't failing the gear check. You are surpassing the DPS check, just failing the coordination check.

They DO have mechanics. Pushing them at the proper times throughout the phases is the mechanic of the fight.

It absolutely does not favor a ranged raid. It, like most others, favors a mixed composition raid. Keep ranged on Zorn to avoid fearful and put melee on Toth. We have had HM EC on farm for quite some time and run with 2+ Marauders, one DPS Jugg, and an Assassin DPS all the time with other melee rotating in sometimes.

No they both enraged, trust me I think we know the difference between a soft enrage and a timer enrage

or just heal through it like the rest of us.

Except that he said they were trying this and their tank was one shot.

Obviously, this is not and has not been working for them. I was trying to give an alternate.

This fight is not overtuned, even if you're heavy on melee.

Now what do I consider heavy on melee? 2. If you bring 3 or MORE melee, well, that's not exactly smart.

Now the damage is not too much, even with a lot of melee. I wouldn't reccomend 3 but you can do it this way as well. You just need to know the fight better. You can predict when jumps happen (so no one but the tank should ever take damage from the jump). In addition, assuming you have kept the two drouks even, every single DPS should hop on Toth after the second rock spike phase. When you kill him this quickly it cuts down on the AOE damage significantly. The enrage is no problem either. Just have the tanks ping pong Zorn with taunts.

@OP: I'm a Shadow tank and never run into this problem with project. Ever. If this keeps happening, know when the jumps happen (they are very predictable) and work your rotation so you stop using project just before a jump. Problem solved. This becomes a non-issue with 1.3 as well.

This fight is not over tuned. At all. If melee are taking too much damage, that means melee are misexecuting at some level.

A sample strat that works with all melee DPS:

(1) Start with your DPS split between Toth and Zorn. Have the DPS on Zorn switch to Toth before the first leap happens to avoid Fearful. Toth will be at 90% and Zorn will be at ~93% when this leap happens.

(2) Continue with all your DPS on Toth. Push him to 80%. Toth goes Berserk.

(3) Have all your DPS switch to Zorn. DPS him all the way until the Baradium Heave. You will catch him up to Toth by the time the Heave happens.

(4) As the Heave is casting, have all your DPS go back to Toth. Zorn Shrieks and applies debuffs right after the Heave. Push Toth to 70% and the next leap will happen.

(5) Split your DPS again between Toth and Zorn. Push to 60%. Toth starts casting Ground Shatter and Zorn roots and casts Sonic Paralysis.

(6) Continue with split DPS until Zorn is nearing the end of his Sonic Paralysis cast. He will Shriek and apply debuffs after that cast. Have all your DPS switch to Toth as that cast is ending to avoid getting hit by the debuffs. If your DPS is high and you push to 50% before the cast ends, melee should also get out before 50% is hit.

Repeat steps (2)-(6). At sub 10% have everyone burn Toth first.

This is the most conservative example of how you can kill the bosses with all melee and avoid all double damage Smashes, all Fearfuls and all Mental Anguish/Weakened debuffs.

There are plenty of ways to take these bosses down. People who think this encounter is "anti-melee" DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE FIGHT.

This isn't true. You can become fully Campaign equivalent without ever downing a boss in HM EC through black hole gear.

You say you've yet to run into enrage, have 2 melee and have mixed black hole gear.

I wonder, are you sure you're not pushing dps too much?

We're 3/4 HM and ironically we spent 2 hours on T&Z last week and then went on to kill Tanks within 20min before end of the raid.

The reason in the end was cause we were pushing too much dps. Not just for the Beserk phase but also for the red circles phase.
Due to dps getting better at playing and better gear we were hitting the switches before Fearful had worn off the tank, causing massive damage to the tank, even if he just taunted and didn't attack back.

Now we call it out when fearful is about to wear off and plan our jumps accordingly, and the fight is pretty easy. That and having our tanks positioning being perfect.
I would say most of the success of this fight is down to tanks positioning and ability to switch quickly. The second is dps throttle and ofc healers being able to keep everyone up (as long as they dont make mistakes such as getting hit by red circles).

Tbh 2 sages is probably not letting you down, we often run all types of setups and find 2 sorcs or 1 sorc 1 op to be best.

Yeah, once your DPS gets high enough it can affect the strat. There are three places where stopping DPS might be necessary. On 16-man at least, two of these DPS stops can be avoided.

(1) You don't want to push Zorn/Toth below 70% / 30% before the Baradium Heave has gone out. You can avoid having to stop DPS here by having all DPS switch to Toth at the 90% / 50% leaps and burn him down to 80% / 40%. Then all DPS switch to Zorn once Toth Berserks and DPS him all the way down to nearly 70% / 30%. The Baradium Heave happens and all DPS switch back to Toth and push him to 70% / 30% and enter the next phase. Then go back to split DPS.

(2) If you push a phase too quickly, a tank can still have Fearful when the next leap goes out. On 16-man, we use three tanks now to compensate for this problem. The tanks just cycle through a rotation of Zorn -> melee DPS -> Toth -> Zorn -> melee DPS -> Toth, etc. This ensures that the tank picking up Zorn never has Fearful and results in an overall DPS gain despite using an extra tank.

(3) At 10%, you need to stop DPS to give the tanks time to re-separate Toth and Zorn following the leap and to give healers a chance to top off the raid before the intense sub-5% damage goes out. If you push too quickly to 5% following the leap you can end up with Toth and Zorn rooted right next to one another, and/or your raid may still be low from the previous Ground Shatter phase. Just stop DPS at 10% and wait until the raid is ready for the final burn!

The jumps happen at specific health points. Pay attention, figure it out, and you can avoid skills like this for the few seconds preceding a jump. There is no random element here, just a side effect of you not fully understanding the fight. I do this with a shadow tank every week and he has yet to 1-shot himself (though one time he did go answer a pizza delivery while tanking Toth....)

As has been elsewhere mentioned, you can get Black-Hole gear quite quickly even without doing hard mode EC. If you aren't, that is your decision, not the game's.

Most of your complaints are coming from a lack of understanding of the mechanics. See above and below for details. You cannot on the one hand complain that the fight isn't about mechanics, but on the other hand complain when those mechanics cause you to wipe.

I have done this fight with THREE (yes 3) melee DPS (8-man, so 1 on Zorn at any given time). If you understand how the jumps, the debuffs and the DoT work, it is completely doable. Is it more complicated? Yes, because there's a DPS swap as well as a tank swap, but frankly it comes with the territory of playing a melee class. Learn the fight better, teach your melee to pay attention and use their skills, and you *can* do it.

There is most certainly something you can do. Rather than complain about a fight that is farmed by a huge number of raid teams, spend some time learning (or asking constructively) about the mechanics.