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Nerfing Shadow/Assassin Tanks

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Nerfing Shadow/Assassin Tanks

winterau's Avatar

06.07.2012 , 06:45 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Dhariq View Post
Also passive mitigation from healing is a huge fail. How do you mean for that to scale in a pve raid? The damage will always out scale that or the healing needs to become a complete joke that does not work in pvp. You have already failed badly here as you even see it as something that is working in the first place as anyone (but BW obviously) can realize that this will never work for pve as % damage will scale faster.
This is actually the biggest issue to my mind.

However I highly doubt you will ever see any raw numbers from Bioware that supports their assertions because as everyone with even a modicum of sense can tell, this is all about a PvP nerf. Heck, even the post from Bioware talks specifically about PvP situations and then nerfs Sin/Shadows hard.

My response to the 1.3 patch notes was to cancel my sub and pre-purchase another game so I can play in the beta this weekend. Bioware fail

Leafy_Bug's Avatar

06.07.2012 , 06:54 AM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Cruz View Post
yes mate, close ur eyes and say it again a 4 MAN mission being SOLO'ed makes SENSE... EVERYTIME... some people these days >.<
Did you just hit 50? Because it seems to me you did. How on earth can you claim that the Blackhole heroic is something challenging if you hit 50 in december like me? I got campaign gear on my shadow and yes I solo that even with my cloak nerfed. The Black Hole Heroic is not a campaign level instance. Thank you very much and the stage for comedians is to the left. Bye.

pure_laced's Avatar

06.07.2012 , 10:07 AM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Parthis View Post
No, they don't.

I have a PT and an Assassin. The PT's general damage reduction and survival is noticeably better. The Assassin feels fragile on the same content. It was noted by my guilds healers how much more unpredictable it was to heal. etc etc.

They nerfed the class's weakest aspect, and buffed it's strongest.
I have all 3 tanks, tanked the hardest content on all 3, barring EC HM Kephess on my Sin.

The healers claim it is unpredictable healing because....wait for it.......wait for have much better avoidance than a PT = spiky damage.

Jugg - High avoidance, low mitigation in shield/absorb. They are upping the absorb in 1.3
Sin - High avoidance, highest shield rating, medium absorb.
PT - Low avoidance, high shield, highest absorb.

What does this mean? Well, a Sin has high avoidance and lower mitigation absorb values which means the damage appears spikey, while the PT is constant incoming damage. In the end, if you parse out logs like we have, and compare the best you can the damage taken, the Sin is the less of all 3 tanks in HM 16 current content.

We don't have a Sin main anymore due to moving/work related issues, but I implore you to examine the logs yourselves and take a look before 1.3 hits. Maybe even do a 1.3 comparison, and I am confident you will find the same as we did.
Cali Killed Nox
Genshen 50: Powertech | Guardian | Assassin | Sniper | Sage
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Vapier's Avatar

06.07.2012 , 10:07 AM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by DawgPoundSwag View Post
Jugg puts hand on shoulder of Sin and says.....

”You can be my offtank anytime. Now get out there and wrangle up some adds”
LMAO! Thats cold man!

I canceled my sub a month ago, Terentatek was a ghost town and just about all my friends were long gone. I still check the forums at least twice a week just in hopes of seeing something good coming to the game so I can sub again... and then I see this happening to my chosen class. What a f***ing joke!

I have a question I have yet to see asked... was there anyone at all complaining about how OP sin tanks in tank/PVP tank gear were in WZ's, world PvP (yeah right!), ect... ? I rolled in tank gear all the time regardless of what I was doing. I did in warzones what it was my AC was designed for, guarding players and defending nodes. Sure my damage sucked but it wasn't my job to kill. I was there to distract and prevent players from taking a node.

With this nerf, not only will my damage still suck, I will also be taken down faster. Awesome! And to all you "this is not a PvP nerf", you either have blinders on or you're just a hater that is sick of getting your *** handed to ya by tanks in DPS gear. Honestly, I don't blame ANYONE for being a little sick of seeing a tank in DPS gear shreading people, it was a bit insane what they were doing. But theres got to be another way of fixing that issue with out giving true tank players the old in-and-out!

Why not just restrict gear in some way or another... "requires xx points in xx spec tree" and W T F, they didn't do squat to Juggs? Last time i played, most players were complaining about them. Not me personally, I thought they were fine, but in my time in game I heard lots of complaints about them, just as much as sin tanks in DPS gear.

What ever... I was hoping to see some good changes coming to the game, but it looks like I'll be waiting even longer.

Glad I canceled... troll if ya like, i couldn't care less

edit: wow... the letters W, T, and F get censored on these forums when placed next to one another with no space between. Gotta love censorship!

Vornin's Avatar

06.07.2012 , 10:12 AM | #55
It was too extreme in both fields. Maybe 15-20% less armor and 75% nerf to self healing. There is a balance but this certainly doesn't feel like it.
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pure_laced's Avatar

06.07.2012 , 10:19 AM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by Vornin View Post
It was too extreme in both fields. Maybe 15-20% less armor and 75% nerf to self healing. There is a balance but this certainly doesn't feel like it.
It doesn't mean it will stay that way. It is easier to over compensate and see how it affects the number crunchers. What if the numbers are within 5% of where they want them to be? They can readjust. But if they adjust too little, they wouldn't be able to see the significance as easily.
Cali Killed Nox
Genshen 50: Powertech | Guardian | Assassin | Sniper | Sage
Guild Website | Stream | Twitter

ProsaicProse's Avatar

06.07.2012 , 10:19 AM | #57
Um.. are any of the people complaining actually testing the changes out on the PTS, or is everyone just... guessing and assuming? I think actual post patch test numbers would be more helpful to Bioware (and assassin tanks), as the current patch being tested is subject to change.

LarryRow's Avatar

06.07.2012 , 10:49 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by krisknife View Post
were are the healing nerfs so scoundrels can't do this as well? If it's pve related you think they would target all classes that had advantages others didn't not just the one and it's mirror
There is one flaw in your logic: scoundrels are skipping a lot of mobs that the other healer classes can't. I bet that first pull in the Black Hole heroic 4 would obliterate any soloist. But scoundrels skip it while commandos and sages can't.

What's my point? That the healer classes are mostly balanced for pve and nerfing scoundrels is a bad idea. You can't judge a class based on it's performance soloing heroic 4.

Similarly, would a guardian or vanguard tank be able to solo the 2 mandatory mobs in that heroic 4? I don't know. I kinda doubt it, but maybe. Regardless, performance in team pvp and pve is much more important to balance. I think we can all agree that the hybrid - mostly tank - shadow with dps gear was way out of whack in pvp. Hence the changes. Now you can say they went too far, and maybe they meant to. Maybe they'd rather overshoot and pull it back a little later, as opposed to undershooting, dealing with qq, nerfing it a little more, and dealing with more qq.

As for pve, I'd like to direct you to the thread Rather Take a Shadow here

And anyway, maybe we can reserve our bellyaching for when we actually see how Shadows are performing on PTS. Thus far it's just people complaining because there was a nerf, with no real evidence that it was an overreach. Sure, there's numbers on the new mitigation amounts, but that's statistics in a vacuum and not very helpful.

BulldogzLife's Avatar

06.07.2012 , 11:59 AM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by LarryRow View Post
There is one flaw in your logic: Assassins are skipping a lot of mobs that the other tank classes can't. I bet that first pull in the Black Hole heroic 4 would obliterate any soloist. But Assassins skip it while PTs and Juggs can't.

What's my point? That the tank classes are mostly balanced for pve and nerfing Assassins is a bad idea. You can't judge a class based on it's performance soloing heroic 4.
Fixed that for ya, cause it's the same point, Assassins can stealth which is why we can solo it, the same as Operatives and such.

The problem is this nerf is strictly PvP based, yet they aren't changing the amount of damage these tanks with dps gear will be doing, just lowering their overall mitigation slightly. This directly impacts PvE, where I've seen Assassins are equal with PTs and both are slightly ahead of Juggs. The self-healing I don't have a problem with being adjusted, as it was slightly high, but the armor nerf is unfounded as we are already ~10% lower in damage reduction, and this will put us almost another 5% lower.

Against physical bosses Assassins take more damage than what a PT or Jugg takes, while against caster bosses we take less due to resists and such. Caster bosses make up maybe ~20% of the bosses in operations. I've seen the logs and parsers multiple times now for all the fights and the level of damage being taken. Assassins are fine.

Eldrizzad's Avatar

06.07.2012 , 02:14 PM | #60
I don't all comes down to fun.
I am in a small guild of 7 real life friends.
We are all in our late 30's early 40's.
We all selected our classes to compliment each other and be a self sufficient raid team.
If these changes make it unfun for me to tank or unfun for our healers to heal, we will probably just move on to a different game system.
No one has any plans to reroll based on bioware's weird (bad) design choices.
We were on the fence already and are honestly getting fed up with the overall homogenization of everything.
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another...