I posted this in TheOpf's stickied AP thread, but figured I'd give it its own thread in hopes of hearing a bit of feedback. Perhaps some better theorycrafters can help me to fine-tune this a bit, but the base of the spec fits my playstyle almost perfectly.

So, when 1.2 was on PTS, I did a little bit of theorycrafting after hearing about the stealth buff to Prototype Flamethrower (70% snare, uninterruptable) and came up w/ a spec that I thought would be overall pretty excellent in PvP.

WELL, it's been quite a while, as I've been leveling a couple other classes up, but I've finally come back to my good ol' Powertech. I was a bit turned off by the absolutely HUGE influx of new Pyro PTs, and as I'd always loved AP more at heart, I decided it was finally time to go back.

I have extensive experience running the old AP "Run 'n Gun" hybrid, as that's what I leveled as and spent a good bit of time as at 50 before switching to a more optimal burst spec. At the time, Run 'n Gun lacked the offensive capability to make it a viable competitive endgame spec.

So anyway, I finally dusted off my BM PT (still in Eliminator champ gear, lol) and respecced her to 0/28/13, a build that has been jokingly nicknamed the Fire Ballerina by my guildies (due to my constantly spamming Flame Sweep to keep PFT stacks at 5). After a bit of getting used to it, it's actually been amazingly successful and has far exceeded my expectations.

Here's the spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301ZMsrrobfkzcZfhMbz.1

(designed to run in Combat Tech set, using Combustible Gas Cylinder)

Pros:

• Very mobile w/ Hydraulic Overrides
  
• Impossible to escape w/ so many snares
  
• Majority of damage is Elemental
  
• PFT is excellent for slowing multiple enemies as well as hurting them badly
  
• Main damage ability hits relatively hard and is spammable
  
• Excellent control against any casting class; can shut most down entirely
  
• Long-range damage options available
  

Cons:

• EXTREME heat issues if not careful
  
• Longer* setup for burst than a deep Pyro spec
  
• Less burst capacity than a deep Pyro spec
  
• No defenses
  

This is not an "easy" spec to play by any means, even though it gives up some of its rotational abilities for a more simplified ability priority. The simpler rotation is compounded by having to watch for 2 separate procs as well as keeping your PFT stacks maintained. Most AP vets will already be used to these aspects, though. : )

Opening rotation (closing from range) usually looks like Exp. Dart > IM > RS > FB (or PFT here). After that, you use RP ONLY when it is both free and heat is ~30 or higher. Outside of the initial RS, you use it only when the auto-crit buff is proc'd. RS becomes more utility in this spec, used as either a bubble-popper for Sorcs so you can channel the full PFT, or a finisher when possible.

You have no heat venting mechanic. None. So you really need to stay on top of your heat at all times, making sure that it never rises above 40 unless you are able to get a kill and vent shortly afterward. Because of this, I try to use IM as little as possible, and will close the distance to use Flame Burst instead if I can.

Sometimes you simply need to nail someone at range, however, and that's why IM is here. It allows you to pull off a decent ranged combo via Exp. Dart > IM > RS > Unload > DFA if you wish.

I may drop the point in Hamstring, as it's inferior to the Flame Burst snare, but there's not a lot of things to put that point into. Maybe I'll take the 5 seconds off of Electro Dart.

I'll try to do a better write-up later, but the build most certainly has merits in group play, and has been imasculating people pretty well since I've learned to play it a bit better. Still fine-tuning, but I think I'll stick w/ this for quite a while. : )

Quick update: I was able to pick up the BM 2pc Combat Tech bonus and a few other pieces, which has helped immensely as I was rocking 2 useless set bonuses from Eliminator when I first started playing this build and my stats are still mostly itemized toward a Pyro build still.

The damage can only go up from here, and it's already pretty good when you consider the extreme control that you get from lower Grapple cd, lower Quell cd, Hydraulic Overrides, CGC snare (reset by rail shot), PFT AoE snare, and long-distance capability thanks to IM. : )

The Maverick is alot more viable. No reason to go that high up in the Pyro tree without going forward to PPA. The Maverick gives a lot more burst dps, and at the same time much better heat management which you will be in dire need of with a spec like this. You can move some points around to also get PFT, but I personally dont think it is worth it unless you are a FULL AP.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=406555

The Maverick is alot more viable. No reason to go that high up in the Pyro tree without going forward to PPA. The Maverick gives a lot more burst dps, and at the same time much better heat management which you will be in dire need of with a spec like this.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=406555

I've run a similar spec pretty thoroughly for a long time, but I found that w/out the Rain of Fire and Firebug talents for Rail Shot, it hits pretty weakly (critting at around 3.5k~ high point in my current gear) and PPA becomes a very weak "burst" mechanic because of it. The heat vent is nice, however.

Instead of relying on extremely predictable white damage "bursts" that will only hit for 3k~, I opted to go higher into AP for the Surge talent to maximize damage on Flame Bursts coupled w/ auto-proc'd CGCs. My Flame Burst crits for about 2.5k~ + CGC's 700~ which actually amounts to much more damage than Rail Shot every 6 seconds, since it has no cooldown. It also takes advantage of the 6% crit to flame burst lower in the AP tree.

I've played this spec enough now that my heat management is actually a non-issue. There are a couple things that you need to remember: Rocket Punches hit hard, and cost 0 heat in this spec. Rail Shots auto-crit when you do use them, and only cost 8 heat and also proc CGC.

Between TSO and Vent Heat, I don't find myself overheating all that often unless I get careless, which happens a lot less now. : )

My "burst" is actually tied to Prototype Flame Thrower (which I protect very well, having spent all of this time since 1.2 on my Tankasin which has a very similar uninteruptable channel mechanic) which I constantly keep at 5 stacks when not actively fighting.

Because of this, I can actually open w/ an 8k~ Flamethrower before I even START to do any real fighting, which catches lots of people by surprise and puts them on the defensive immediately. After that, I can choose to either kite or simply go for the FB spam kill w/ RS/RP thrown in for good measure. By the time I need it, I will have yet another stacked Flamethrower ready to go.

Kiting usually involves putting up all 3 of my DoTs and spamming Flame Bursts on my target w/ Overrides active, mixing in Rail Shots and Exp. Dart when they come off cd. This destroys Marauders, btw. : )

I find that PFT is actually extremely valuable, not only because of the huge damage boost, but because of the on-demand 70% AoE snare that pretty much wrecks teams en route to assisting teammates quickly.

On maps like Huttball where damage isn't king, you can stop not only ball carrier in his tracks for a good while, but his entire entourage as well. Very useful.

TLDR: Basically PFT + Prototype Weapon Systems > PPA 1.2, imo. Before 1.2, I would have (and did) agree wholeheartedly, but it's a different ball game now.

I stated my opinions in the AP thread, but will copy them to hear so we have a single thread.

Not really, because Rail Shot doesn't hit hard w/out Firebug and Rain of Fire. PPA 1.2 only procs every 6 seconds, so every 6 seconds I can do an attack for 3k damage, or every 15 seconds I can do 2 of them for 6k~ damage. Rail Shot, while nice, is pretty negligible for AP. I only use mine as a low-heat attack and finisher.

Rail Shot's issues with AP are well known and is the main reason for the Norse build. I am a little confused with your last comment. Rail shot should be your high heat ability since it vents 8 heat every time you use it with your build. The PPA procs are very important to Pyro, but that's not the deal here. Essentially you spent 11 points in a talent that you use only as a low-heat attack even though it's your only venting ability. Plus Rail Shot is the second hardest hitting attack in the PT line if properly talented with deep Pyro and the shield damage.

You also took Charged Gauntlets so not using it on CD means a waste of both CGC and Superheated Rail which leaves me still confused as to what your saying.

In that same time w/ 3 Flame Bursts, I would easily outdamage that and have the benefit of those attacks being Elemental.[/quote)

 

Except that's not true unless you are using HEGC. Flame Burst without HEGC and Intimidation and War Hero mods respecced to full Power Surge hits for significantly less than Rail Shot. All live and simulator testings reflect this. It's only at the far end of gear does Flame Burst surpass Rail shot. My Flame Burst hits for 2800 crit. RS hits for 3300 crit in AP.

 

For people who don't mind being tied to 10m at all times, there are other specs that can do that better, sure. I like being able to drop 6-7k on a target at range. : )

 

It is, indeed, very heat-intensive and that was the first con I listed for it for a reason. However, once you get used to it, it's really not all that hard. You have a free Rocket Punch and 8 heat Rail Shot to mix in, alongside TSO, Vent Heat, and of course, flat-out killing your target to vent. This spec has been very good at that last part.

 

That may be true in the fights you are in right now, but you are severly limited. The best ranged attack that Powertechs have is TD, and you don't have that. Your outside of 10m is Rail Shot and Rapid Shots which you don't really spec to fully utilize. So exactly what range do you gain from your spec? You don't have Immolate (hardest hitting Elemental instant), TD, fully specced RS, or any other ranged talents except Inciendary missle and Explosive dart both of which are extremely weak and cost a ton of heat.

 

I am not trying to demean your abilities. I am trying to understand your logic here. What ranged capabilities do you get that give you any advantage?

 

If a build does not give any advantages over another build, why use it?

I think you are overlooking a few things in your post:

1) Rail Shot costs 16 heat. Superheated Rail only vents 8 heat. This makes Rail Shot cost 8 heat overall. It doesn't vent heat at all w/out PPA making Rail Shot free. I do, however, use it on cd - I didn't mean to sound as though I don't. I just meant that if a target is nearing death, I'll hold onto the proc for a moment for a killshot. Timing is essential in PvP, as you know.

2) You are absolutely right that I am not using HEGC. HEGC only provides an 8% overall increase to Elemental damage, which is VERY nice, don't get me wrong. However, you're not taking into account CGC for some reason. Flame Burst hits for about 1.8k, crits for about 2.5k~ for me.

2500 + 8% (200) = 2700~ crit. My CGC ticks for about 400 on the low end. 400 > 200 damage per Flame Burst. Altogether, it becomes 1.8k + 400 = 2200 damage non-crit, 2.5k + 400 = 2900 damage crit. Every time. Keep in mind that I tried to go w/ the lowest number I've seen pop up from a CGC proc; it's generally higher than that. If FB does not crit, you're getting a very poor ROI on HEGC, whereas even if your FB doesn't crit in CGC, your CGC will STILL hit just as hard and cover some of the lost damage from the non-crit.

3) I realize that you don't like Exp. Dart, but I'm not sure where you're getting this "high heat cost" from. It's 16 heat. Almost all of our abilities are 16 heat. Mine hits for about 2k non-crit, 2.7k~ on crit. I use it when I'm at range. If you don't, that's your preference, but it's not a bad button to push when at range.

4) I never claimed to have AS MUCH ranged capability as Pyro in this spec. That was never the intention. It does, however, have FAR more ranged capability than a standard AP or ST spec, which WAS the intention.

Exp. Dart (2k) > IM > RS (3k) > Unload (2k) is not too shabby for a spec that also happens to excel at murdering anything w/in 10m. I may actually drop IM from the spec because of the heat, but I like having a reliable ranged DoT. Unload, while having a very good chance of proc'ing, has a cd and has a small chance of not proc'ing the cylinder.

If I wanted to leave my damage capability up to chance, I'd have stayed w/ Pyro. Also, this is a lot more fun.

I think you are overlooking a few things in your post:

 

1) Rail Shot costs 16 heat. Superheated Rail only vents 8 heat. This makes Rail Shot cost 8 heat overall. It doesn't vent heat at all w/out PPA making Rail Shot free. I do, however, use it on cd - I didn't mean to sound as though I don't. I just meant that if a target is nearing death, I'll hold onto the proc for a moment for a killshot. Timing is essential in PvP, as you know.

 

2) You are absolutely right that I am not using HEGC. HEGC only provides an 8% overall increase to Elemental damage, which is VERY nice, don't get me wrong. However, you're not taking into account CGC for some reason. Flame Burst hits for about 1.8k, crits for about 2.5k~ for me.

 

2500 + 8% (200) = 2700~ crit. My CGC ticks for about 400 on the low end. 400 > 200 damage per Flame Burst. Altogether, it becomes 1.8k + 400 = 2200 damage non-crit, 2.5k + 400 = 2900 damage crit. Every time. Keep in mind that I tried to go w/ the lowest number I've seen pop up from a CGC proc; it's generally higher than that. If FB does not crit, you're getting a very poor ROI on HEGC, whereas even if your FB doesn't crit in CGC, your CGC will STILL hit just as hard and cover some of the lost damage from the non-crit.

I know all about CGC. You are actually losing 14 percent damage on HEGC (though it may be more depending on where HEGC is added and when they add certain percentages) You are missing the fire damage increase over on the shield tree. CGC is notorious for it's benefits and it is well known in PT circles that it's the defining reason Pyro outdamages AP in a fight. HEGC is Elemental and Internal. It buffs RB as well.

My argument was over the fact that you state that FB hits harder than Railshot. This isn't true ever until High end gear (which you don't have) and proper speccing. My point was that you don't have the talents needed to make it better, nor do you have the talents to make RS at it's best. So you are basically using two below optimal attacks.

In full AP which doesn't take into account certain Pyro talents RS is still the second hardest hitting attacks until High End Gear which you don't have. My RS in full AP hits for 3300 which is significantly higher than your Flame Burst and Higher than my flame Burst. My Flame Burst in BM/War Hero gear hits for 2800 crit and 1900 normal.

3) I realize that you don't like Exp. Dart, but I'm not sure where you're getting this "high heat cost" from. It's 16 heat. Almost all of our abilities are 16 heat. Mine hits for about 2k non-crit, 2.7k~ on crit. I use it when I'm at range. If you don't, that's your preference, but it's not a bad button to push when at range.

I should have been more clear. Explosive Dart has horrible Damage per heat - which means using it costs you more heat/damage than not using it. It's our worst attack. Using Rapid shots is better than Explosive dart as it gives similar damage without costing heat.

4) I never claimed to have AS MUCH ranged capability as Pyro in this spec. That was never the intention. It does, however, have FAR more ranged capability than a standard AP or ST spec, which WAS the intention.

 

Exp. Dart (2k) > IM > RS (3k) > Unload (2k) is not too shabby for a spec that also happens to excel at murdering anything w/in 10m. I may actually drop IM from the spec because of the heat, but I like having a reliable ranged DoT. Unload, while having a very good chance of proc'ing, has a cd and has a small chance of not proc'ing the cylinder.

 

If I wanted to leave my damage capability up to chance, I'd have stayed w/ Pyro. Also, this is a lot more fun.

Again, what ranged damage do you have that's better than 31 point AP or Norse build? Unload everyone has, RS (both Full AP and Pyro hit as hard or harder)

We come back to the same question every time.

What damage do you provide that Pyro doesn't top and AP can't match?

What is the point of the build?

Summary: You do less damage than both AP and Pyro, die faster since you don't have the cooldowns, and provide less defensively as well as have worse heat isues. So what do you bring that the other trees or hybrids don't?

Oh, I see, you misunderstood what I said. What I said is that in 6 seconds (2 Rail Shots), Flame Bursts will easily outdamage 6k~.

6 seconds = 4 Flame Bursts (or 3, really). 3 Flame Bursts is more damage than 2 Rail Shots. That is what I meant.

Also, Rapid Shots does not do the same damage as Explosive Dart in 1 GCD. You need to use Rapid Shots more than once in order to outdamage Explosive Dart, and that is EXTREMELY costly in GCDs. You also cannot use Rapid Shots to set up a slightly higher burst w/ your Rail Shot.

If you are comparing Explosive Dart to Rapid Shots in any way, shape, or form for PvP, I don't think you get why I'm using it. It's a great tool for non-Pyro, and in my opinion, should be on everyone's bar for the situations where it's useful.

In actual practice (even in my severely unoptimized gear), it does extremely well against most classes, and actually allows me to destroy a few classes that I had problems w/ before (like Tankasins and Marauders).

I'm not really understanding why you're having so much problem seeing what I'm talking about for ranged damage.

I have the exact same options for ranged damage as Pyro, only I use Explosive Dart in my combo instead of Thermal Detonator, and my Rail Shot hits for 1k less.

We come back to the same question every time.

What damage do you provide that Pyro doesn't top and AP can't match?

What is the point of the build?

 

Summary: You do less damage than both AP and Pyro, die faster since you don't have the cooldowns, and provide less defensively as well as have worse heat isues. So what do you bring that the other trees or hybrids don't?

Well, here's the meat of it.

The spec provides higher utility than AP, due to the high uptime snare and ranged options.

The spec provides higher utility by FAR than Pyro, due to Hydraulic Overrides and cd-reduction talents, as well as PFT's 70% snare.

I don't do less damage than both AP and Pyro, that's just your assumption. I do less burst damage than Pyro, and I do comparable damage to full AP in PvP w/ much higher control capability.

It's higher burst damage than the Maverick hybrid due to its reliance on weak PPA'd Rail Shots and its lack of PFT. You know as well as I do that 1 stacked PFT is more damage than 2 Rail Shots from AP.

It's a spec that excels at doing it all, at the cost of having to maintain your heat closely and watch yourself from overextending.

Don't forget that this spec is hands-down the best kiting spec in the entire game, and that provides a LOT of defense if you know how to work it to your advantage.

It's definitely not for everyone, it's a very difficult spec to play competitively, but it matches my style very well. I don't know if my success has been due more to the spec or because the spec just happens to provide everything that I need whenever I need it.

It's been destroying the healers and dps in some of Taugrim's premades lately and I was still in full Champ w/ 2 wasted set bonuses. I'm overall very happy w/ its performance even compared to Pyro. I hope that it only gets better when I actually have optimal gear for this setup. I don't personally fraps or stream, but Taug may have caught a few of our fights on his stream if it was up over the weekend.

It can kite melee extremely well.

It can completely shut down any class that depends on a cast bar.

It can absolutely wreck a tank/heal combo w/ DFA / PFT.

There is no class that can escape from its damage, outside of popping Shroud/Cloak, etc.

Good enough?

I've run a similar spec pretty thoroughly for a long time, but I found that w/out the Rain of Fire and Firebug talents for Rail Shot, it hits pretty weakly (critting at around 3.5k~ high point in my current gear) and PPA becomes a very weak "burst" mechanic because of it. The heat vent is nice, however.

[/b]

What is so bad about about 3.5k RS? And how is FB accounting for more damage? You will still be using FB, only when you're not you will be using RS with a crit chance of at least double that of a full pyro spec. Because with Charged Gauntlets and making sure you include RP and RB in the rotation, it is not a matter of "IF" you crit, because you will pretty much constantly do so.

Yes an AP/Pyro hybrid wont do the burst potential of a pyro, but neither will this at all. But with these hybrids, the point is you are sacrificing some dps/burst of Pyro, for the utilities of AP, while maintaining the same playstyle of a pyro. Because if it was about getting the most dps possible while having the AP utilities, then you might as well go full AP. In other words, what is the advantage of this spec? You definitely will not have higher burst than an AP. And no, IM is not an advantage at all. Even as a Pyro, you rarely use it. The heat and damage output of IM, gives it very limited use. If it is range you want, you might as well just use Unload or even rapid shots. In the end, it just leaves us with CGC and the snare. If that is the case, I would go deep AP 0/31/10.

And yes, heat management IS an issue. Just because you have it under control, does not mean you dont have a heat issue. It just means you learned to maintain low heat by holding back on your dps. With the spec I am suggesting, you will rarely even use Rapid Shots, because of PPA, Free RPs and GAJ.

With regards to PFT, I dont see how you are regularly hitting 8k on someone without HEGC/Intimidation/Steely Resolve. Maybe you are regularly coming across people without any expertise. But in the end, if you enjoy it, then all power to you.

LOL, I'm not fighting undergeared people. I'm in Champ. It's less expertise than Recruit, if you've forgotten. It's almost impossible to be fighting undergeared people at this point on my server, besides PvE players.

I don't always maintain low heat, I just happen to know when to ramp it up and when to back it off. It's an ebb and flow that you get used to after a few days in competitive play.

The advantage of the spec is very respectable damage (we are talking about a few percentage points here) w/ much higher control.

I don't have the same playstyle as a Pyro at all, where are you even getting this? You can't possibly have the same playstyle as Pyro in this spec. <.< It can simply opt for Pyro-like ranged damage at times, but the heart of the spec is still in AP. It plays more like AP.

Burst, burst, burst, burst. You keep saying this, but this isn't designed to be a burst spec. I never once said that it was. It is a CONTROL spec w/ very decent damage and high utility.

If anyone was looking to try something a bit more complex and extremely rewarding, I thought I'd post what I was working on. If you want burst, there are better specs for that (though I have trouble seeing the Maverick hybrid as one of them, lol). This spec is oriented more for the DPS-assist role in high-end play (since that's the role my PT plays in my guild, assisting my fiance's Mara on the kill train and murdering heals and tanks).

I'm still debating, however, dropping IM from the spec. Like you said, I also rarely use it, and can use Unload to accomplish the same thing (proc'ing a burn effect). 25 heat is prohibitive.

If I do that, I'll likely toss it into the 2% fire damage talent in ST or Stabilized Armor. Most likely the damage, though.

I suppose you could think of it as the Maverick, but instead of PPA for "burst", I'm using PFT and my RP/FBs crit harder. So basically the Maverick w/ access to a 70% AoE snare. : )

Oh, I see, you misunderstood what I said. What I said is that in 6 seconds (2 Rail Shots), Flame Bursts will easily outdamage 6k~.

 

6 seconds = 4 Flame Bursts (or 3, really). 3 Flame Bursts is more damage than 2 Rail Shots. That is what I meant.

Um, the 6 seconds is the time between RS procs not the time of Rail Shot casts. I think you are completely lost here mate. Rail Shot is an instant with a 15sec cd unless it procs at which point you can use it without a cd and then hit another RS wait 6 sec and then it's ready to go again. The Proc happens when you use RP or FB to proc RS. I think you are misunderstanding the basics of Pyro RNG - RS/RP/RS hits harder than FBx3 without HEGC and Shield tech Fire buffs.

Also, Rapid Shots does not do the same damage as Explosive Dart in 1 GCD. You need to use Rapid Shots more than once in order to outdamage Explosive Dart, and that is EXTREMELY costly in GCDs. You also cannot use Rapid Shots to set up a slightly higher burst w/ your Rail Shot.

 

If you are comparing Explosive Dart to Rapid Shots in any way, shape, or form for PvP, I don't think you get why I'm using it. It's a great tool for non-Pyro, and in my opinion, should be on everyone's bar for the situations where it's useful.

Again, you miss the damage per heat index - damage per heat is horrible for explosive dart. Always has been Always will be. It's a decent aoe attack but not for it's heat cost. Rapid Shots hits for about 1500-2k for free (Rapid hits 3 times at around 400-600 per hit). Explosive dart hits for about that amount for 16 Heat. I am not sure why I would use it. I use 16 heat at the same GCD as Rapid shots uses but for free? So again whats the advantage?

In actual practice (even in my severely unoptimized gear), it does extremely well against most classes, and actually allows me to destroy a few classes that I had problems w/ before (like Tankasins and Marauders).

 

I'm not really understanding why you're having so much problem seeing what I'm talking about for ranged damage.

 

I have the exact same options for ranged damage as Pyro, only I use Explosive Dart in my combo instead of Thermal Detonator, and my Rail Shot hits for 1k less.

Again, all of your "ranged attacks" are available to everyone for the same cost and same damage. There is no advantaged gained.

Well, here's the meat of it.

 

The spec provides higher utility than AP, due to the high uptime snare and ranged options.

Except it doesn't. You gain no ranged damage that is better than a Max AP. And your snare is offset by the fact that you don't get the 15 percent speed bonus to HEGC.

[

 

The spec provides higher utility by FAR than Pyro, due to Hydraulic Overrides and cd-reduction talents, as well as PFT's 70% snare.

 

I don't do less damage than both AP and Pyro, that's just your assumption. I do less burst damage than Pyro, and I do comparable damage to full AP in PvP w/ much higher control capability.

No you don't. With your gear levels it's virtually impossible on a BM geared guy for your FB to hit for 2500. At my gear level with Norse build which buffs my damage up considerably. My FB hits on a crit for 2800 on a Recruit geared player and 2200 on a BM or WH gear. You don't have nearly the talents to pull it off. Even then you don't Have immolate (stunningly powerful) you lose 14 percent damage off the bat just from talents alone. Pyro PVPers have Energy Rebounder (amazing) and Their shield removes all snares (pretty nice).

[it's higher burst damage than the Maverick hybrid due to its reliance on weak PPA'd Rail Shots and its lack of PFT. You know as well as I do that 1 stacked PFT is more damage than 2 Rail Shots from AP.

Rail Shot PPA is not weak at all. 1 stack of PFT does not hit anywhere close to 6-8k damage. You need 5 stacks to hit that and perfect crits. 5 stacks of PFT on a similar geared guy with 50 percent crits will hit for 5-8k.

[it's a spec that excels at doing it all, at the cost of having to maintain your heat closely and watch yourself from overextending.

 

Don't forget that this spec is hands-down the best kiting spec in the entire game, and that provides a LOT of defense if you know how to work it to your advantage.

I am not sure if you are trolling or not. You can't kite better than a sniper or lethality operative. You have no abilities that are better than a Pyro to kite with except HO. You have no abilities that are better than AP at kiting except a slightly more powerful RS, and a perma slow which is offset by the speed buff to AP.

[it's definitely not for everyone, it's a very difficult spec to play competitively, but it matches my style very well. I don't know if my success has been due more to the spec or because the spec just happens to provide everything that I need whenever I need it.

 

It's been destroying the healers and dps in some of Taugrim's premades lately and I was still in full Champ w/ 2 wasted set bonuses. I'm overall very happy w/ its performance even compared to Pyro. I hope that it only gets better when I actually have optimal gear for this setup. I don't personally fraps or stream, but Taug may have caught a few of our fights on his stream if it was up over the weekend.

You are in Ajunta Pall? What's your character's name? I know all of the really good PT's on that server, and have yet to run into one that can beat me regularly.

BTW, PVP has been awful absolutely awful on that server for the last 2 weeks. You have a ton of poorly geared 50's playing right now as all your strong players are rolling alts or waiting for rated. I know at least 4-5 premade groups who aren't running their mains until Rated.

Maven is running their alt teams without the gear people. Taugrim is a solid player, but his teams are not very strong at the moment.

[

It can kite melee extremely well.

As good as any other PT spec.

[

It can completely shut down any class that depends on a cast bar.

This is true of any Powertech and/or Juggernaught.

[

It can absolutely wreck a tank/heal combo w/ DFA / PFT.

There is no class that can escape from its damage, outside of popping Shroud/Cloak, etc.

 

Good enough?

I would say that this is the same as every other PT. If there is someone hanging out in DFA/PFT than they are going to be dead regardless of which class. DFA is almost always avoided by the good teams.

Um, the 6 seconds is the time between RS procs not the time of Rail Shot casts. I think you are completely lost here mate. Rail Shot is an instant with a 15sec cd unless it procs at which point you can use it without a cd and then hit another RS wait 6 sec and then it's ready to go again. The Proc happens when you use RP or FB to proc RS. I think you are misunderstanding the basics of Pyro RNG - RS/RP/RS hits harder than FBx3 without HEGC and Shield tech Fire buffs.

That's exactly what I said about RS. The EARLIEST you can use it is at the 4.5 second mark, but it's usually going to be along the lines of 6 unless you have a RP lined up. This isn't always the case, because RP's cd doesn't match up.

Or you can hold onto the proc and fire back to back Rail Shots every 15 seconds. I'm not sure where you got anything else from what I said.

Again, you miss the damage per heat index - damage per heat is horrible for explosive dart. Always has been Always will be. It's a decent aoe attack but not for it's heat cost. Rapid Shots hits for about 1500-2k for free (Rapid hits 3 times at around 400-600 per hit). Explosive dart hits for about that amount for 16 Heat. I am not sure why I would use it. I use 16 heat at the same GCD as Rapid shots uses but for free? So again whats the advantage?

And again, you're missing the point entirely that you're using the 16 heat for a DELAYED 2k attack to add onto your Rail Shot for slightly higher burst. You cannot do this w/ Rapid Shots no matter how hard you try. And again, 16 heat is not a lot because I only use it at range, and vent while closing on my enemy.

Again, all of your "ranged attacks" are available to everyone for the same cost and same damage. There is no advantaged gained.

No, they really aren't. AP doesn't have access to Rail Shot at range, until either closing distance first or switching cylinders. I didn't think I was all that confusing about the statement. AP's natural Rail Shot also has 30% less armor penetration, and costs 8 more heat. It also does not get the added damage bonus from the CGC proc every time you fire it.

Rail Shot, I spam on cd, so 16 heat for this ability IS a lot. Explosive Dart I use once in a blue moon when I'm stuck at range, so 16 heat is not that much as I will dissipate heat while closing distance.

That's exactly what I said about RS. The EARLIEST you can use it is at the 4.5 second mark, but it's usually going to be along the lines of 6 unless you have a RP lined up. This isn't always the case, because RP's cd doesn't match up.

 

Or you can hold onto the proc and fire back to back Rail Shots every 15 seconds. I'm not sure where you got anything else from what I said.

Either way - RP or FB plus 2 RS or 1 RS still hits harder than 3 FB's without HEGC and the 6 percent damage increase in shield tech.

And again, you're missing the point entirely that you're using the 16 heat for a DELAYED 2k attack to add onto your Rail Shot for slightly higher burst. You cannot do this w/ Rapid Shots no matter how hard you try. And again, 16 heat is not a lot because I only use it at range, and vent while closing on my enemy.

 

 

 

No, they really aren't. AP doesn't have access to Rail Shot at range, until either closing distance first or switching cylinders. I didn't think I was all that confusing about the statement. AP's natural Rail Shot also has 30% less armor penetration, and costs 8 more heat. It also does not get the added damage bonus from the CGC proc every time you fire it.

Rail Shot is 30M for everyone. Rail shot does not proc CGC. Flame Burst auto procs CGC and any damage has a 10 percent chance for CGC. You aren't specced into the improved rail shot damage in the shield tree so you lose 6 percent base damage which AP gains. 30 percent Armor penetration is understood but you lose Immolate which has 100 percent Armor pen so again a disadvantage.

Rail Shot, I spam on cd, so 16 heat for this ability IS a lot. Explosive Dart I use once in a blue moon when I'm stuck at range, so 16 heat is not that much as I will dissipate heat while closing distance.

Rail shot with HEGC passive venting 16 heat for 3300 damage is a good trade. 16 heat for 1500 damage is a bad trade. Not sure where this is losing translation.

Agooz, am I somehow speaking in circles?

Again, The only ability you gain in ranged damage over AP is a 30 percent more armor pen and CGC. This is a solid point, but not sure how that's better than immolate at 10 improved fire damage and Steely Resolve which makes the trade completely useless. Aim plus more fire damage = win. Most of the time when you are kiting the guy is almost dead or you are almost dead. Having CGC at this point isn't really that valuable.

However your slight gain of AP in "range" is lost to Pyro significantly, and you lose significant damage when in close to AP because you don't have Immolate, and all your attacks hit for a minimum of 14 percent damage lost and a maximum of 18-20 percent damage lost.

Except it doesn't. You gain no ranged damage that is better than a Max AP. And your snare is offset by the fact that you don't get the 15 percent speed bonus to HEGC.

50% snare > 15% run speed boost in PvP. It always will be.

No you don't. With your gear levels it's virtually impossible on a BM geared guy for your FB to hit for 2500. At my gear level with Norse build which buffs my damage up considerably. My FB hits on a crit for 2800 on a Recruit geared player and 2200 on a BM or WH gear. You don't have nearly the talents to pull it off. Even then you don't Have immolate (stunningly powerful) you lose 14 percent damage off the bat just from talents alone. Pyro PVPers have Energy Rebounder (amazing) and Their shield removes all snares (pretty nice).

I'm not really sure what makes you think that Champ can't hit BM for 2500 crits. There's only a few stat points difference per piece. I took the time to remod all of my Champ gear optimally for DPS a long, long time ago, so it is not base Champion gear stats.

I'm not going to argue w/ you about what numbers I can pull, because it is pointless. I know what I hit for.

Rail Shot PPA is not weak at all. 1 stack of PFT does not hit anywhere close to 6-8k damage. You need 5 stacks to hit that and perfect crits. 5 stacks of PFT on a similar geared guy with 50 percent crits will hit for 5-8k

This was a miscommunication. I meant 1 FULLY stacked PFT, not a 1 stack PFT (I don't know anyone who uses it w/ 1 stack, lol).

I am not sure if you are trolling or not. You can't kite better than a sniper or lethality operative. You have no abilities that are better than a Pyro to kite with except HO. You have no abilities that are better than AP at kiting except a slightly more powerful RS, and a perma slow which is offset by the speed buff to AP.

HO is a godly kiting tool, as well as a 10m ranged 50% snare w/ high uptime. Combined, I can't think of a better combo for kiting. Yes, including Leg Shot and Corrosive 'Nade's 30% snare.

You are in Ajunta Pall? What's your character's name? I know all of the really good PT's on that server, and have yet to run into one that can beat me regularly.

I'm Ceraphene. Come find me later tonight, I'll be on after work. I'm still tweaking the spec and the gear isn't optimal, but I definitely have no qualms w/ dueling you or anyone else. : )

Heck, we can even see what I'm critting for on your gear.

BTW, PVP has been awful absolutely awful on that server for the last 2 weeks. You have a ton of poorly geared 50's playing right now as all your strong players are rolling alts or waiting for rated. I know at least 4-5 premade groups who aren't running their mains until Rated.

 

Maven is running their alt teams without the gear people. Taugrim is a solid player, but his teams are not very strong at the moment.

Definitely truth. I've been doing the same, myself. It started picking up this past weekend though, w/ premades from Whitestar, Maven, Merasska, and a couple others running all day. Good times. : )

You're right that Maven is running their alt team (w/ gear that is still comparable/better than mine, btw), but they are still solid PvPers and have a few geared people running w/ the alts.

As good as any other PT spec.

We'll just agree to disagree on this one, since I've yet to see AP do much at range besides Unload. You can't fire your RS at range in HEGC. Period.

I would say that this is the same as every other PT. If there is someone hanging out in DFA/PFT than they are going to be dead regardless of which class. DFA is almost always avoided by the good teams.

DFA is extremely easy to avoid, yes. It's marginally less easy to avoid if you use it on stunned or snared targets. But yeah, like I said earlier, it's used more as a "get out of this spot" move.

PFT is pretty easy to catch people w/ the full channel in practice, however. Even 2 people. : )

I suppose you could think of it as the Maverick, but instead of PPA for "burst", I'm using PFT and my RP/FBs crit harder. So basically the Maverick w/ access to a 70% AoE snare. : )[/color]

I think you're missing the point of the snare bonus of PFT. It is not that you get an AOE snare so you can "snare" people. The snare is there so that you can maximize FT. So you shouldnt look at PFT as a "snare" ability, it is an AOE frontal, period. Especially that the snare will ONLY happen on a fully stacked PFT, which is a minimum of 5 GCDs. That said, with this spec, your FT is doing about 15-20% less damage than a full AP.

Second, I already said that you can tweak the Maverick to also have PFT, but because of the above mentioned damage loss, and because I extensively tested it and parsed it on a dummy, I found that in a spec other than full AP, PFT looses its luster, and it certainly did NOT add but in fact lowered the overall sustained dps when it was part of the rotation.

PPA with Maverick makes RS amount to about 25% of your total damage output. Without PPA, RS would probably amount to 8-10% of your total damage at BEST. There is no way with your spec that Prototype Weapon System's 30% surge to FB and RP can make up for that 15% damage loss of PPA, not to mention the damage loss from the higher heat produced with this spec.

Rail shot with HEGC passive venting 16 heat for 3300 damage is a good trade. 16 heat for 1500 damage is a bad trade. Not sure where this is losing translation.

 

Agooz, am I somehow speaking in circles?

Yes, because you are somehow magically firing your Rail Shot at range in HEGC, w/out putting a DoT on your opponent.

That's why I'm not following when you say that AP has access to the same abilities as my current spec.

I think you're missing the point of the snare bonus of PFT. It is not that you get an AOE snare so you can "snare" people. The snare is there so that you can maximize FT. So you shouldnt look at PFT as a "snare" ability, it is an AOE frontal, period. Especially that the snare will ONLY happen on a fully stacked PFT, which is a minimum of 5 GCDs. That said, with this spec, your FT is doing about 15-20% less damage than a full AP.

Um, yeah, I know why the snare is there. You have honestly NEVER once thought of using your 5-stacked FT against that group of people chasing down your ball carrier?

It doesn't have to be used only for that....

Yes, because you are somehow magically firing your Rail Shot at range in HEGC, w/out putting a DoT on your opponent.

 

That's why I'm not following when you say that AP has access to the same abilities as my current spec.

because Rail shot is always a ranged attack. Everyone can fire it. Rail Shot doesn't have a dot attached to it. It needs a dot to be active. If I need a dot on a target at ranged, normally someone else has put it on or I grapple the guy to me, and rb him before he runs away.

because Rail shot is always a ranged attack. Everyone can fire it. Rail Shot doesn't have a dot attached to it. It needs a dot to be active. If I need a dot on a target at ranged, normally someone else has put it on or I grapple the guy to me, and rb him before he runs away.

Nobody has ever said in this thread that there is a DoT on Rail Shot. Why do you? <.<

I said you need a DoT to fire your Rail Shot.

You just acknowledged that you cannot fire your Rail Shot unless someone else has put a DoT on them, or you have to burn one of your BEST utility cds to pull them into melee range and RB him to fire your shot. At that point, you aren't at range anymore.

AP cannot fire Rail Shot at range by itself. It has to close to melee first and THEN has the capability of firing Rail Shot. I've said this multiple times. It is a weakness of the full AP spec running in HEGC, and something that I dislike, so I changed it. : )

Pretend for a moment that I fully grasp Powertech mechanics, and quit talking down to me like a child. I know full well what the specs are capable of.

50% snare > 15% run speed boost in PvP. It always will be.

Unless you are both snared at 50 percent at which point - 15 percent is better. There are only two trees with the 15 percent speed buff, and no one really understands how much better it is. With the amount of snares, cc, kb's, slows, and mezzes in this game HO and that 15 percent speed buff are insanely powerful.

There is a marauder spec that has the 15 percent speed buff, but I can never remember which tree.

Nobody has ever said in this thread that there is a DoT on Rail Shot. Why do you? <.<

 

I said you need a DoT to fire your Rail Shot.

 

You just acknowledged that you cannot fire your Rail Shot unless someone else has put a DoT on them, or you have to burn one of your BEST utility cds to pull them into melee range and RB him to fire your shot. At that point, you aren't at range anymore.

 

AP cannot fire Rail Shot at range by itself. It has to close to melee first and THEN has the capability of firing Rail Shot. I've said this multiple times. It is a weakness of the full AP spec running in HEGC, and something that I dislike, so I changed it. : )

 

Pretend for a moment that I fully grasp Powertech mechanics, and quit talking down to me like a child. I know full well what the specs are capable of.

I have never found using grapple to begin an attack to be "burning" the cd. That's like saying use HO even when I am not PFT is bad. Using HO on demand and Grapple when I need it always equals an advantage.

Unless you are both snared at 50 percent at which point - 15 percent is better. There are only two trees with the 15 percent speed buff, and no one really understands how much better it is. With the amount of snares, cc, kb's, slows, and mezzes in this game HO and that 15 percent speed buff are insanely powerful.

 

There is a marauder spec that has the 15 percent speed buff, but I can never remember which tree.

You are basically not self-sufficient then. You cannot provide your own DoTs at range for your Rail Shots.

You cannot provide your own 50% snare, which makes your 30% snare (lol 6 second duration) actually worse than a normal 50% snare, becaue you'll be at 65% run speed and they will be at 70%.

I like the snare better. You can keep your run speed. : )

I have never found using grapple to begin an attack to be "burning" the cd. That's like saying use HO even when I am not PFT is bad. Using HO on demand and Grapple when I need it always equals an advantage.

I use my grapple for heavy focus targets, or save it for defending in Huttball. I use it liberally, but I do NOT use it as a replacement for doing damage to someone at range.

It's also very nice to drop ranged damage on a squishy or healer, close distance, start your damage, and still have Grapple available for when they run.

I use my grapple for heavy focus targets, or save it for defending in Huttball. I use it liberally, but I do NOT use it as a replacement for doing damage to someone at range.

 

It's also very nice to drop ranged damage on a squishy or healer, close distance, start your damage, and still have Grapple available for when they run.

But we are not a ranged class. We are a melee that has some ranged abilities. Operatives are semi ranged. We are like Maruaders and Juggernaughts. We have some ranged abilites with our strengths being melee.

You are basically not self-sufficient then. You cannot provide your own DoTs at range for your Rail Shots.

 

You cannot provide your own 50% snare, which makes your 30% snare (lol 6 second duration) actually worse than a normal 50% snare, becaue you'll be at 65% run speed and they will be at 70%.

 

I like the snare better. You can keep your run speed. : )

I find the snare useless. I run the Norse build and so don't have hamstring or any slows. I have no need for them. I have never found anyone who can consistently kite long enough to kill me before I kill them or close the gap.

I am not talking to you like a child. It just seems that you are misunderstanding basic concepts at times. PFT is not a snare because it's only up when you are using flame thrower. Once flamethrower ends so does the slow. It allows you to get the attack off that's why it's there. I know you understand that, but the term "snare" is misleading here.

If you fully understood the mechanics of the class than you would see the major issues with your specs. Look, there are specs I don't like but are in the guide because they provide a significant advantage in an avenue of play.

You keep saying your damage is as good as full AP and you provide more utility than Pyro. Except the only utility provided is HO, and faster quell. That's not significant, because Pyro has Energy Rebounder which is a significant survival tool.

You do not provide more damage than AP because you are losing at best 14 percent damage across the board to every single attack, and 20 percent or more depending on Aim levels.

I am fine with experimenting with builds, but you have to be receptive to criticism and constructive advice. You are defensive and unwilling to listen to advice. That is why it seems we are talking down to you.

To be honest, I never duel. I never liked the idea of dueling. I don't mind meeting up and letting you hit me to find out what your attacks hit for though.