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Am I spoiled by my previous MMO?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Am I spoiled by my previous MMO?

Evangelist's Avatar


Evangelist
05.17.2012 , 06:45 AM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by Khoryphos View Post
Sorry, I don't buy it. I don't think it is spoiled to have certain expectations. All of those things you listed were new and novel at the time they were created, but not today. Those games contributed to the design evolution of MMOs. Good for them. They had a far more untested designs and far less competitive market back then. As for new MMOs, we expect them to use what came before as a groundwork and then add their own new twist to the genre. We expect more out of the gate from a new entry to the market, and we should- there is far more competition for our time and dollars. If they want our money they need to be at least as good as what's already on the market at that price point. If those other guys are doing all those things better then why switch?

No MMO is perfect, very true. However most people have a standard of quality that a game, like any product, must meet. Unfortunately, myself and others like me have decided that SWTOR does not meet that standard in its current form. At least not at its price of $15/month. I'll keep tabs on new additions to the game. If they can bring things up to speed, I'd be happy to give it another go.
Actually no they were not "new & novel" WoW is one of the worst "borrowers" ever. Many features in WoW were/are features copied from various other games and it took time to get them in too.

What most players seem to lack is a concept of money. BioWare had $X to spend developing SWTOR and for $X you only get so many man hours. Then you get investors and execs going "So guys when are we going to start seeing a return on our investment?" So BioWare then ahs to determine when the game is ready for launch so they can sell copies and start making some of the $X back (or hopefully making more than $X). The sales and subscriptions go to further development and maintenace (hardware, bug fixes, etc.), they then start adding all the "Wouldn't it be cool if..." stuff that didn't get added in the initial development.

MY biggest gripe is the way they screwed up the servers at launch, things would vastly improve for many people if they'd just merge low population servers.

Frostvein's Avatar


Frostvein
05.17.2012 , 07:36 AM | #82
Speaking personally, I don't think anyone expected everything WoW had, and especially not the same level of content. No one. And if they did, I'll be the first person to ridicule them.

What people expected was something new. They didn't get that. We can spend all day talking about how new and innovative TOR is, but at the end of the day its WoW with lightsabers and VO circa 2007/08. The problem? This is 2012. If you are going to make a WoW clone, you damn well better have the same things it does and more, not one with a fraction of the features on a worse engine.

What many of the people here have trouble understanding is that a ton of people left WoW for this looking for something different - when they see a virtual clone with nearly the exact same type of mechanics, its like "Didn't I just leave this game?" Then, when they notice that half of the things they used to be able to do in a game that came out nearly 8 years ago they can't do here (40v40 WZ's, macros, moddable UI, real combat log, better appearance system) it quickly becomes "What the hell is the point?"

Further, when the people who tried and hated WoW begin to play TOR and notice all the similarities it becomes another letdown. "I hated WoW, why would I like TOR?" The ablities and talents are nearly identical. The gear system is nearly identical. End game is nearly identical. I mean really, you could take any class from this game and dump it into WoW and it could probably function without too much tweaking.

So, they launched a game that is basically identical to WoW without taking the time to implement the things that made it great, and then people wonder why so many are unhappy?

TOR launched with bare bones features - basically combat and a simple chat. No guild banks? No guild management tools? Day/night cycle? Swimming? Chairs? Combat log? Customizable UI? Chat Bubbles? LFG? Gear customization tools/Tab? The list (and its freaking long) goes on. And you know what the sad part is? I bet most people would have been just fine with having the pitiful amount in 1.2 - which we celebrated as TORs welcome to 5 years ago. Great job on those guild banks Bioware. Keep up the good work.

I'm sorry but expecting this game with the mega budget, years of development time, many other MMOs, and plenty of examples before them to have most things people associate with an MMO is not being unreasonable or unfair - especially when you consider other games that were released in the same time frame managed to show that it is possible while doing it on a fraction of the budget. This game launching with a pitiful amount of features (and not even close to the de-facto standard), buggy as hell, on a terribly optimized engine is not mine or anyone's fault but the developers, and being surprised that people are unhappy and blaming it on the community for having "unrealistic expectations" is a joke
Meanwhile, in Tera general chat -

"The sad thing is, arguing with fanbois on the forums was more entertaining than their 300 million dollar single player MMO from 2008"

Dezzi's Avatar


Dezzi
05.17.2012 , 10:48 AM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by marseluswallace View Post
So basically what you're saying is...since wow has what...4-5 expansions now, every mmo should be released with that much content?

Do you realize how long it would take to make an MMO of that size? Do you know how old WoW is, and how long it has taken them to get to their current expansion let alone the up and coming Pandaria one?

We would never see STWOR or any mmo for that matter. Lower your standards. That game will never exsist.
Are you aware that there's a difference between content and feature? When you've figured it out, get back to me.
Ebon Hawk (RP)
Peace | Knowledge | Serenity | the Force
I'm a Jedi because the galaxy needs Jedi.

Dezzi's Avatar


Dezzi
05.17.2012 , 10:58 AM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
Sorry, but I disagree. Those that are truly dissatisfied move on. They provide feedback that they aren't satisfied by not continuing to spend their money for something that does not satisfy them. If the product or service improves sufficiently, they will return. Their return provides feedback that they are no longer dissatisfied.

Those that choose to stick around while hoping that the product or service improves should recognize that the fact that they continue to spend their money does not mean that company A is under any obligation to improve their product or service. With regards to providing feedback, there is a huge difference between "Your product or service could be improved by providing X, Y or Z." and "This is an outrage. X,Y and Z should have been included from the start, give them to me, or else." IMO, one is constructive feedback, and the other is that entitled attitude I have mentioned previously.
Players have access to the developers making and shaping the games they enjoy. Developers have the ear of the players who play their games, and have access to a wealth of first-hand insight into how their game works and plays. You don't seem to understand how this works...

I have yet to see a negative post saying "give the aforementioned to me now or else."

Your issue isn't that people are unhappy or dissatisfied; your issue is that you--while being happy and content (but posting, not playing)--have to read posts by people who are dissatisfied. You would rather silence criticism behind the tired banner of "you don't have to be here, move along." Sorry, but welcome to MMOs--and the internet.
Ebon Hawk (RP)
Peace | Knowledge | Serenity | the Force
I'm a Jedi because the galaxy needs Jedi.

JeramieCrowe's Avatar


JeramieCrowe
05.17.2012 , 03:40 PM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by Dezzi View Post
Are you aware that there's a difference between content and feature? When you've figured it out, get back to me.
Features are almost never included with launch, and usually trickle in over the first year. This is by design. Shall I show you my rundown of Rift again? And I only use Rift because it's the next-latest MMO. If I tried to use WoW, people use the failed strawman argument of it being released in 2004, which actually makes no difference...
Allix Crowe - Vanguard Trooper -/- Ethavan Crowe - Smuggler Gunslinger -/- Malrath Crowe - Powertech Bounty Hunter -/- Boslo - Jedi Knight Sentinel -/- Jiao-gen Pall - Jedi Knight Guardian -/- Landen Tanarr - Jedi Consular Sage -/- Vaelyth Kinti-kaar- Sith Warrior Juggernaut -/- Oteln'erose'thu - Imperial Agent Sniper -/- Zandur Tuum - Cathar Knight

Razdek's Avatar


Razdek
05.17.2012 , 05:12 PM | #86
Quote: Originally Posted by Frostvein View Post
Speaking personally, I don't think anyone expected everything WoW had, and especially not the same level of content. No one. And if they did, I'll be the first person to ridicule them.

What people expected was something new. They didn't get that. We can spend all day talking about how new and innovative TOR is, but at the end of the day its WoW with lightsabers and VO circa 2007/08. The problem? This is 2012. If you are going to make a WoW clone, you damn well better have the same things it does and more, not one with a fraction of the features on a worse engine.
Actually when they let the public know that swtor was in development the devs repeatedly said that "WOW did it right so we will be using this as a model for our game." (please not this is slightly paraphrased). So anyone who came in expecting anything other then wow with lightsabers and something new instead were kidding themselves.

Rhysling's Avatar


Rhysling
05.17.2012 , 05:13 PM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by GreySix View Post
What I want is a Star Wars RPG I can play cooperatively with my wife - no multiple other players - just my wife, perhaps over our home network.

I can't be alone in this. Does nobody else want something like that?
Yes, I too want a game I can play with your wife.

Dezzi's Avatar


Dezzi
05.17.2012 , 06:06 PM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by JeramieCrowe View Post
Features are almost never included with launch, and usually trickle in over the first year. This is by design. Shall I show you my rundown of Rift again? And I only use Rift because it's the next-latest MMO. If I tried to use WoW, people use the failed strawman argument of it being released in 2004, which actually makes no difference...
It's not enough to rest on "we add them in over time." Players--clearly--expect certain features at launch. The games that include them will do better than those that don't.
Ebon Hawk (RP)
Peace | Knowledge | Serenity | the Force
I'm a Jedi because the galaxy needs Jedi.

tloops's Avatar


tloops
05.17.2012 , 07:55 PM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by JeramieCrowe View Post
Features are almost never included with launch, and usually trickle in over the first year. This is by design. Shall I show you my rundown of Rift again? And I only use Rift because it's the next-latest MMO. If I tried to use WoW, people use the failed strawman argument of it being released in 2004, which actually makes no difference...
guild wars 2 has just about all the features a modern mmo should have in it,at launch...tor is way behind in this department
TOR...the best single player game on the market

JeramieCrowe's Avatar


JeramieCrowe
05.17.2012 , 08:21 PM | #90
Quote: Originally Posted by Dezzi View Post
It's not enough to rest on "we add them in over time." Players--clearly--expect certain features at launch. The games that include them will do better than those that don't.
Quote: Originally Posted by tloops View Post
guild wars 2 has just about all the features a modern mmo should have in it,at launch...tor is way behind in this department
That's probably true. Certain features are more important to the community than others. It's just hard, sometimes, to tell what those features are. Did you even see the outcry from this community when it was announced there would be no swimming? Tens of thousands of posts crying about it. Would you say it's a top feature or not?

TERA is launching with an LFG tool. However, it is NOT launching with several other features. Somehow, I think that the inclusion of an LFG tool at launch won't stop the haters from ragging on the features that aren't there, though...
Allix Crowe - Vanguard Trooper -/- Ethavan Crowe - Smuggler Gunslinger -/- Malrath Crowe - Powertech Bounty Hunter -/- Boslo - Jedi Knight Sentinel -/- Jiao-gen Pall - Jedi Knight Guardian -/- Landen Tanarr - Jedi Consular Sage -/- Vaelyth Kinti-kaar- Sith Warrior Juggernaut -/- Oteln'erose'thu - Imperial Agent Sniper -/- Zandur Tuum - Cathar Knight