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Healers - James Ohlen speaks out?!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Healers - James Ohlen speaks out?!

pathiss's Avatar


pathiss
05.16.2012 , 11:08 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Janyx-Nehalem View Post
As a shadow tank, with some work, I can shut down 2 dps trying to kill/interrupt my healer between my KB, taunts, knockdown, stun, and mezz I can tie them up nearly indefinitely, freeing my healer to get out group heals on anyone in the immediate vicinity. One of my more regular PvP premade partners is a sage, and I've never seen him underperform in a WZ.
In the exact same circumstance, I would heal for twice as much as the sage in question because the interrupts would hardly phase me. Not only that, I would have to spend far less time healing both you guarding me and myself because I am far less squishy (for several reasons). This means the majority of my healing is going to other people that need it instead of to us.

Also, I am not trying to be rude here, but your example is a little far fetched. You should know as well as I do that you aren't going to be fighitng practice dummies. They are going to be using CC, interrupts, etc. on your healer as well. Your cool downs are going to be half as effective in use compared to theirs simply because multiple opponents have more to burn through than you do alone. I would venture to say that even a single well played marauder (using my guild members as an example) is going to do more than enough to lock that sage's effectiveness down despite your best efforts, even if a single marauders cant kill him.

Really man, I know what you are trying to do and say, but coming from the perspective of playing all three healers, I have a pretty damn good perspective as to the difference between them. The sorc/sage excels, no doubt, but only in situations where they are fighting idiots.

Sookster's Avatar


Sookster
05.16.2012 , 11:11 AM | #62
God I know Britaany Banks from anywhere... *cough* SWG.

I haven't seen a sorc pass 400K healing post 1.2, I've seen a sage go 600K+ but because of those premades that always queues on HoG. I see waaaaaay more madness sorcs now.
Now that GoergZoeller is gone, buff operative.
SWTOR going F2P, now playing SWGemu.

xxprimalxx's Avatar


xxprimalxx
05.16.2012 , 11:16 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Janyx-Nehalem View Post
I don't know if I'd say required. If you want to be competitive, then yes, but the alternative was pre 1.2 when tanks were useless and all stacked dps gear because healers didn't need any help.
The point being that if i want to roll as heals in pvp. I aam expected to drag a tank along. Yet marauders for instance can not only survive without a healer to do their job but in most cases ccan take on 2 or more solo and still walk away looking for a fight. Now i am in no way saying healers should be able to survive 4v1without. But they need to be given better viability via survival cds or new escape mechanics.

Janyx-Nehalem's Avatar


Janyx-Nehalem
05.16.2012 , 11:22 AM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by pathiss View Post
In the exact same circumstance, I would heal for twice as much as the sage in question because the interrupts would hardly phase me. Not only that, I would have to spend far less time healing both you guarding me and myself because I am far less squishy (for several reasons). This means the majority of my healing is going to other people that need it instead of to us.

Also, I am not trying to be rude here, but your example is a little far fetched. You should know as well as I do that you aren't going to be fighitng practice dummies. They are going to be using CC, interrupts, etc. on your healer as well. Your cool downs are going to be half as effective in use compared to theirs simply because multiple opponents have more to burn through than you do alone. I would venture to say that even a single well played marauder (using my guild members as an example) is going to do more than enough to lock that sage's effectiveness down despite your best efforts, even if a single marauders cant kill him.

Really man, I know what you are trying to do and say, but coming from the perspective of playing all three healers, I have a pretty damn good perspective as to the difference between them. The sorc/sage excels, no doubt, but only in situations where they are fighting idiots.
I respect that. Thanks for not flaming.

However, just from personal experience I disagree. In my premades I've never seen a Scoundrel healer outperform a competent Sage by a factor of 2. I've also never had a problem locking down a dps or 2 on my sage heals. If the sage is kiting correctly (esp using pillars or terrain), and I'm keeping force slow rolling + we're both using our KBs to effect, 2 maras can basically NEVER close to harass the healer. Not to mention, if they're away from heals of their own, I WILL kill them. Beware the shadow tank who stacks surge for auto-crit projects. It's the same with Vanguards, plenty of hobbling tools and great damage on stock strike.

I respect that your experience may be different. Agree to disagree I suppose.
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. I shall not love. I shall not hate. I am the knife in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold. I am the light that brings the dawn. I am the shield that guards the innocent. I pledge my life and honor to the Republic, for this night and all the nights to come.

Janyx-Nehalem's Avatar


Janyx-Nehalem
05.16.2012 , 11:25 AM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by xxprimalxx View Post
The point being that if i want to roll as heals in pvp. I aam expected to drag a tank along. Yet marauders for instance can not only survive without a healer to do their job but in most cases ccan take on 2 or more solo and still walk away looking for a fight. Now i am in no way saying healers should be able to survive 4v1without. But they need to be given better viability via survival cds or new escape mechanics.
But if we give you those tools and you don't need a tank, why take one?

If you are capable of escaping any foe and never needing to rely on your team for help, you might as well just drop the tanks and stack more dps.

I see nothing wrong with at the beginning of a pug WZ you ask whos a tank and if you can get guarded. I often will call out in pug WZs to see who is heals and gravitate towards them for the teams sake.

This is a team game, you have to learn to work with others to shore up your classes weaknesses.
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. I shall not love. I shall not hate. I am the knife in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold. I am the light that brings the dawn. I am the shield that guards the innocent. I pledge my life and honor to the Republic, for this night and all the nights to come.

xxprimalxx's Avatar


xxprimalxx
05.16.2012 , 11:28 AM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by Janyx-Nehalem View Post
I agree not all healers are in the same place. For sure Scoundrel is better off than sorc, that I'll admit. However, my point was that tanks are the pivotal game changer for ANY healer.

As a shadow tank, with some work, I can shut down 2 dps trying to kill/interrupt my healer between my KB, taunts, knockdown, stun, and mezz I can tie them up nearly indefinitely, freeing my healer to get out group heals on anyone in the immediate vicinity. One of my more regular PvP premade partners is a sage, and I've never seen him underperform in a WZ.
Your entire discussion points to a healer only being allowed to heal if he is attached to the hip of another player. This is un acceptable. I wonder how dps classes would feel if 90 % of their abilities could not be used unless they were standing next to a healer? Most of the sorc/sages i know have either rerolled or went dps and in some cases just unsubbed.

xxprimalxx's Avatar


xxprimalxx
05.16.2012 , 11:39 AM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by Janyx-Nehalem View Post
But if we give you those tools and you don't need a tank, why take one?

If you are capable of escaping any foe and never needing to rely on your team for help, you might as well just drop the tanks and stack more dps.

I see nothing wrong with at the beginning of a pug WZ you ask whos a tank and if you can get guarded. I often will call out in pug WZs to see who is heals and gravitate towards them for the teams sake.

This is a team game, you have to learn to work with others to shore up your classes weaknesses.
Been there done that. Most times the healers are left to their own devices unless in a PREMADE as you keep referring to. Let that sorc healer try to solo any dps. And he dies unless he outgears the opponent. Yes it is a team. It is a team of tunnelvisioner players who are wrapped around the next kill for their medals. Having a character that is essentially useless without another player is nonviable. IF they are ignored and IF your opponents are completely ignorant they can do well. Most dps jump straight to sorcs/sages not because they are afraid of their healing ability but because they are easy kills/medals.

Blloodbane's Avatar


Blloodbane
05.16.2012 , 11:44 AM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by xxprimalxx View Post
Your entire discussion points to a healer only being allowed to heal if he is attached to the hip of another player. This is un acceptable. I wonder how dps classes would feel if 90 % of their abilities could not be used unless they were standing next to a healer? Most of the sorc/sages i know have either rerolled or went dps and in some cases just unsubbed.
Welcome to the world of a Carnage/Combat tree of Maurader's and Sentinel's which has ZERO healing in the class.
*The Sith Code* Peace is a lie ~ There is only passion~ Through passion I gain strength ~ Through strength I gain power ~ Through power I gain victory ~ Through victory my chains are broken ~ The Force shall set me free

Janyx-Nehalem's Avatar


Janyx-Nehalem
05.16.2012 , 11:44 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by xxprimalxx View Post
Been there done that. Most times the healers are left to their own devices unless in a PREMADE as you keep referring to. Let that sorc healer try to solo any dps. And he dies unless he outgears the opponent. Yes it is a team. It is a team of tunnelvisioner players who are wrapped around the next kill for their medals. Having a character that is essentially useless without another player is nonviable. IF they are ignored and IF your opponents are completely ignorant they can do well. Most dps jump straight to sorcs/sages not because they are afraid of their healing ability but because they are easy kills/medals.
Sounds like you need to move onto a game that revolves around solo game play and 1v1 mechanics.

Also, if a dps is out on his own without heals, they're going to find that their dps drops significantly because they are dead.

The solution is simple, just stick near a tank, ask them for guard....and profit. Or don't and be fodder, I don't care.
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. I shall not love. I shall not hate. I am the knife in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold. I am the light that brings the dawn. I am the shield that guards the innocent. I pledge my life and honor to the Republic, for this night and all the nights to come.

Cognortin's Avatar


Cognortin
05.16.2012 , 11:50 AM | #70
Roll a Merc healer and get back to me. Mercs are absolutely garbage. Sorc healers in my guild seem to do fine. The heat costs for mercs is rediculous then to throw alacrity on our gear so we burn through it that much faster... awesome.. Bring on some more nerfs please.