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As A Sorcerer, Every One Is OP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
As A Sorcerer, Every One Is OP

SinnedWill's Avatar


SinnedWill
05.15.2012 , 09:11 AM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by V-Serp View Post
I've tried every Sage spec I could think of, and for DPS I settled on the full Balance build you use as well. It's really the only viable one, but as you point out it does lack synergy because of DOTs breaking our CC. This also however has the added issue of causing problems for team play, where we are unintentionally either breaking CCs and ruining caps or we just aren't contributing because we can't really do anything else.
It also scales very badly with and against high end gear and high end PVP, as it lacks burst and most of the damage can be cleansed. I believe that's why you don't see many DPS Sage/Sorc in high level PVP now.
Healing wise Sage/Sorc isn't the best but is still viable, especially on a good team. But, personally, I find PVP healing very boring. Ironically I strongly prefer PVE Tank or Healing over DPSing, and in PVP it goes the opposite where I more enjoy DPS.
I have 3 other classes I play with, Assault based Vanguard is a much better DOT based ranged spec than Sorc/Sage right now. But I actually no longer play that spec because I find the tank spec is actually stronger. My Marauder blasts out more damage and has better survivability by far, and surprisingly feels harder to contain even in huttball, which is the only WZ I enjoy being a Sage in. I use my Marauder defensive cooldowns extremely offensively, and I've really only noticed a handful of other Marauders that play a similar playstyle that I do. My last class is an Operative but at a low level so I guess I don't really have a comment on that, but the playstyle seems more fun and I don't think I'd have any trouble with it at high level.
.
Biggest problem with madness/balance sorc/sages:
Many less experienced players of this template use instant-cast version of mez (which is the worst thing, ever) - if you put 2 points to make it insta-cast, you're usually the one to blame for needless hutt-ball goals or turning pt's/vg's/maras/sents/shads/sins into much more difficult encounters since this fills resolve to max if they take damage (love it when a sorc/sage does this to me - I get mezzed, then 2s stun, then I'm immune and took very little damage - 2s stun for full resolve isn't worth it). If you want a quicker mez cast, put 1 point in this, only. Personally, I have 0 points in it and I do fine with the normal casting time.

Problems for ALL DPS sorc/sage:
Yes, we scale terribly due to lack of any high (base) damage abilities. We (madness spec) could really use a buff to our DoT's (either increase their total duration but keep damage values or increase damage values), shock damage (assassin innate shock damage -without any bonuses from talents/procs- should be what we do considering its force cost), and crushing darkness (initial damage). Lightning specs should get something to make affliction immune to being cleansed, and some damage increase to its talented abilities (then again, I haven't tried it in a while - maybe I'll check how well chain lightning's damage is scaling with expertise - although I lack alacrity now).
Mains: TheSinner - Madness Sorc; Scornful - Carnage Marauder
Minis: Scorned - Deception Assassin; Sinbane - Pyro Powertech; Sinborn - Marksman Sniper
Guild: Physics
Server: The Shadowlands by way of Dreshdae Cantina.

VoidJustice's Avatar


VoidJustice
05.15.2012 , 09:11 AM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by Cindarstorm View Post
I am sorry, but the whining in this game is ridiculous. Of course RDPS die to MDPS at close range. If they did not, NO ONE would EVER play a MDPS. Terribly hard to understand, I know.
Eh... pvp forums are always full of the weaping and gnashing of teeth. Not that it isn't ridiculous, just that it is all too common.
Understanding is the true weapon of a Jedi and willpower is the iron clad arm that wields it.

MrSIlverSurfing's Avatar


MrSIlverSurfing
05.15.2012 , 09:27 AM | #73
You think the sorcerer is bad. Play a merc. I have both and all though sorcerer isn't the top its better than the doo doo Mercs.

SinnedWill's Avatar


SinnedWill
05.15.2012 , 09:31 AM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by Cindarstorm View Post
I am sorry, but the whining in this game is ridiculous. Of course RDPS die to MDPS at close range. If they did not, NO ONE would EVER play a MDPS. Terribly hard to understand, I know.
I have no issue with maras/sents, contrary to popular belief - not on any class I play (Madness Sorc, Carnage Mara, Tankassin, MM Sniper, and Pyro P-tech).

I think the issue here is ability damage (namely base value) disparity, which isn't mutually exclusive to melee classes (try a sniper/gunslinger or powertech/VG with full WH gear to show what ranged damage can do). Every class with significant high base damage abilities (might only need a few so long as they can be reactivated without terrible cooldowns or has methods to reset the cooldown) are benefitting most from expertise (add x% of a higher base value, you get a greater benefit, no?). Sorc/Sage lack any abilities with significant base damage, thus they lose significant efficiency at end-game by comparison (200-400 DoT ticks, 1800-3500 relic/adrenal'd most significant burst crit ability).
Mains: TheSinner - Madness Sorc; Scornful - Carnage Marauder
Minis: Scorned - Deception Assassin; Sinbane - Pyro Powertech; Sinborn - Marksman Sniper
Guild: Physics
Server: The Shadowlands by way of Dreshdae Cantina.

EugeneYap's Avatar


EugeneYap
05.15.2012 , 09:32 AM | #75
Sorc are very strong but only in the "Right Hands"
But they are not OP even if they seem OP.
Everything It's fine, L2P

SinnedWill's Avatar


SinnedWill
05.15.2012 , 09:42 AM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by MrSIlverSurfing View Post
You think the sorcerer is bad. Play a merc. I have both and all though sorcerer isn't the top its better than the doo doo Mercs.
They both perform relatively poorly end-game right now, though I think merc might scale a bit better from expertise. All-in-all, however I must say that I agree - if you like what mercs do (dps-wise) roll a powertech for better effect. Or if you like ops/scoundrel dps, roll a middle tree spec of assassin/shadow for same playstyle with more overall functionality. I think they nerfed all 3 AC's that have healing a bit much due to their "jack of all trades" capability if you spec hybrid (and master of all for many pre 1.2) - yes, nerfs were necessary due to the significance of their performances, but I think they could've been handled differently (i.e. introduce a stance or form for healing or dps - stances gives damage bonus/healing decrease if they want to do damage or healing increase/damage decrease for heal spec - similar to most other AC's based upon thier spec for performance). Yes, the hybrid dps build needed to be nerfed (and it was), but they also nerfed the damage output for 31-pt specs.
Mains: TheSinner - Madness Sorc; Scornful - Carnage Marauder
Minis: Scorned - Deception Assassin; Sinbane - Pyro Powertech; Sinborn - Marksman Sniper
Guild: Physics
Server: The Shadowlands by way of Dreshdae Cantina.

Diebar's Avatar


Diebar
05.15.2012 , 09:53 AM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by Tellahtron View Post
Im pretty sure you can win any of the 4 maps without actually killing a single person. So what if you die in 2 seconds, did you pass the ball? did you CC someone to allow a bomb planting/defuse? did you cap a turret?

TOR pvp is all about objectives, not dealing 8 bazillion damage or healing for Umpteen-thousands. You cap objectives, hold objectives, throw objectives.

Complaining is not yet an objective, but look forward to 1.5.. I hear its in the pipeline.
Quote: Originally Posted by hamerdin View Post
this is the most informative thread ive seen....EVER....I LIKE THIS GUY.
Yes, mee too!

BTW, for the man who opened this thread. I am not agree, you should play an Scrondrel/Operative and then come back and open a new thread crying. Maybe you have to improve your kite tecniques or doble-check your skills points and find a better positioning place.

SinnedWill's Avatar


SinnedWill
05.15.2012 , 09:57 AM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by EugeneYap View Post
Sorc are very strong but only in the "Right Hands"
But they are not OP even if they seem OP.
Full WH geared end-game performance, and in the "Right Hands", your sorcerer gets outperformed by other classes. Expertise effects on damage values being the most significant thing end-game and sorcerer/sage are significantly lacking on base damage valued attacks. I suppose you could argue that sorcerer could perform as the best sustained DPS if they increased DoT damage moderately, and reduced force cost for many abilities (currently takes me ~20s to burn through my force - after which we can only spam force lightning or tkt and hopefully get killed or if we have healers, we can gradually consume/noble sacrifice - works best with ops/scound pre-cast HoT's if you spread out consumption/noble sac, but this still doesn't give us much more uptime).
Don't get me wrong, we still perform admirably against certain classes and we can bring the pain if left unchecked (but it typically only takes 1 person of any AC with more significant damage values to either kill us outright or force all of our attention upon to survive). Keep in mind, I'm speaking from a DPS spec point of view - Heal-specced and hybrid heals/dps specs seem to be performing remarkably by comparison.
Mains: TheSinner - Madness Sorc; Scornful - Carnage Marauder
Minis: Scorned - Deception Assassin; Sinbane - Pyro Powertech; Sinborn - Marksman Sniper
Guild: Physics
Server: The Shadowlands by way of Dreshdae Cantina.

SinnedWill's Avatar


SinnedWill
05.15.2012 , 10:02 AM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by Diebar View Post
Yes, mee too!

BTW, for the man who opened this thread. I am not agree, you should play an Scrondrel/Operative and then come back and open a new thread crying. Maybe you have to improve your kite tecniques or doble-check your skills points and find a better positioning place.
Ops/scounds can still dish out great burst - but yes, if they can't kill something within their stunlock duration, they too suffer - merc/commando dps's are apparently suffering as well (though they might be decent at full gear due to higher base damage abilities, I just don't see many people bothering to gear their merc/commandos right now, though). Seems like all the AC's that have dps and healing capability are suffering the most (as pure dps) with end-game (full WH remodded gear vs. full WH remodded gear targets). Also, melees are the least of my problems as a madness sorc (unless you consider P-Tech/VG and Assassin/Shadow to be melee). Mara/Sent and Jugg/Guardians aren't an issue for me until there are 3+ (I can last long enough surviving against 2 to make it ineffective for them to actually prime me before someone else - and anytime 3+ have to focus on someone, you've certainly made yourself an asset to the rest of your team). Also, capping objectives and CC'ing is significant and most important to winning (I agree), but you don't usually win without at least some people on your team killing effectively - regardless of what you might believe, you can't CC everyone indefinitely - and you accomplish more from a kill than you can accomplish via effect of CC for longer durations (typically) and is certainly integral to team survivability (and objective control) in its own right.
Mains: TheSinner - Madness Sorc; Scornful - Carnage Marauder
Minis: Scorned - Deception Assassin; Sinbane - Pyro Powertech; Sinborn - Marksman Sniper
Guild: Physics
Server: The Shadowlands by way of Dreshdae Cantina.

V-Serp's Avatar


V-Serp
05.15.2012 , 10:05 AM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by SinnedWill View Post
Biggest problem with madness/balance sorc/sages:
Many less experienced players of this template use instant-cast version of mez (which is the worst thing, ever) - if you put 2 points to make it insta-cast, you're usually the one to blame for needless hutt-ball goals or turning pt's/vg's/maras/sents/shads/sins into much more difficult encounters since this fills resolve to max if they take damage (love it when a sorc/sage does this to me - I get mezzed, then 2s stun, then I'm immune and took very little damage - 2s stun for full resolve isn't worth it). If you want a quicker mez cast, put 1 point in this, only. Personally, I have 0 points in it and I do fine with the normal casting time.
Quick point on this, the instant-mez is supposed to be used for objective capping and defense. You are not supposed to use it to get the 2s stun on it. Not being instant makes it much too slow to actually use in PVP. If that weren't the case everyone would just pick the middle turret tree and free cast everything and be perfectly viable.

I also don't know about it filling resolve by itself. I have used knockback, instant-whirlwhind and the 4s stun all in a row to allow a teammate to cap without resolve triggering. This is also why nobody should ever just have one person on defense in a node based map like Alderaan and probably not for NC either.