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Toth and Zorn HM tank swap


Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
05.14.2012 , 09:53 PM | #1
Currently I'm having an argument with guild members regarding how to do the tank swap on Toth and Zorn HM. I'm advocating that the tanks swap sides so that Toth and Zorn are kept in the same positions for the duration of the fight, while some of the other ops members want to swap the bosses back and forth. I've seen in done both ways by groups who are successfully clearing it, so I was hoping someone with experience could provide a strong rationale for one method or the other.

In terms of details about our group, that's in flux right now, but almost certainly 1-2 melee DPS.

NotRonin's Avatar


NotRonin
05.14.2012 , 11:14 PM | #2
If you have 2 ranged dps on Zorn outside the magical 30 meter, they will not get the fearful. Therefore only the tank should swap. If you have melee DPS on Zorn, then you should swap both tank and bosses.

AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
05.14.2012 , 11:19 PM | #3
As you have clearly said people have different ways for doing this fight but I'll do my best to describe how our group clears HM Toth and Zorn. Everything is in terms of Republic classes because that's what I know best.

Ideal Group Composition:
Two tanks (preferably a mix, ie. not two Vanguards)
Two healers - One Sage on Toth tank, One Commando/Scoundrel on Zorn tank
Two Melee DPS - Preferably Two Sentinels on Toth
Two Ranged DPS - Preferably One Gunslinger and One Sage

Our healers and ranged head to the far side of the area (cave entrance side) and then the two tanks pull Toth and Zorn to the walls. When Toth leaps to Zorn, we have the tanks swap positions and keep the bosses in their respective spots. This is less confusing for our group and it helps prevent dragging the boss's AOEs in range of our ranged DPS. If a ranged DPS acquires Fearful have a melee swap bosses. Also have melee and the tank on Toth CD through his frenzy to help the healer out. An important part is to keep Melee DPS to the cave side of the boss in order to stay out of Toth's Fearful leap. We usually have trouble balancing DPS as melee can still maintain most of their DPS during the spike phases rather than the range who have to run around and dodge them at a far while staying out of the fearful leap to come.

Sorry if this written a bit messy but I'm quite tired at the moment.

pure_laced's Avatar


pure_laced
05.14.2012 , 11:41 PM | #4
Bosses stay where they are. When Toth leaps, the other tank taunts and repositions him back to Toth's original position. The only players needing to switch are the 2 tanks/healer combos. Of course there are many ways to skin a cat, but there will always the best way. This is it.
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Malissant's Avatar


Malissant
05.15.2012 , 08:48 AM | #5
To avoid having to have our tanks completely re-position the bosses each time they swap we only swap bosses the tanks stay put in their respective positions.

We found overall this helped limit the amount of time that the tanks were getting beat on while trying to re-position and allowed everyone to max DPS out through the whole fight with a minimum of foot movement.

This likely works for us because of where we tank the bosses, which is closer to the entrance from other videos that I've seen. The ranged/healing classes standing as a group at the point of a "V" position (closer to the entrance). For the most part they are in range of both bosses with a minimum of movement so having them swap which location they are healing/damaging isn't a big deal.

I don't think it matters which way you do it, since people clear the content using both strategies. I think once you play it a few times and get a feel for the movement you can pick a strategy that works best for the people involved.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.15.2012 , 08:57 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by pure_laced View Post
Bosses stay where they are. When Toth leaps, the other tank taunts and repositions him back to Toth's original position. The only players needing to switch are the 2 tanks/healer combos. Of course there are many ways to skin a cat, but there will always the best way. This is it.
I would beg to differ. Your strategy assumes a particular DPS composition, as well as *perfect* positioning on the part of both healers and the (minimum 2) ranged DPS. You can do it this way, and your DPS time will be a *little* higher, but it comes at a cost of being a much more volatile strategy. If anything goes wrong, you have to coordinate a target swap mid-fight.

A more stable strategy is the one where all members swap targets, but remain standing in the same place. Thus, Zorn will initially be on the left, Toth on the right. After the leap, Toth is on the left, then Zorn on the right. The problem with this strategy is it means the tank who starts on Zorn will end up getting all of Toth's frenzies, as well as the cone damage from Zorn. So, there's a lot more damage on that side. This is easily handled by letting the stronger spot healer handle that side, as well as biasing that side toward range.

With this strategy, there are no compositional assumptions. We one-shot this boss with all melee, all ranged, and mixtures in between using this strategy.
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pure_laced's Avatar


pure_laced
05.15.2012 , 09:27 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I would beg to differ. Your strategy assumes a particular DPS composition, as well as *perfect* positioning on the part of both healers and the (minimum 2) ranged DPS. You can do it this way, and your DPS time will be a *little* higher, but it comes at a cost of being a much more volatile strategy. If anything goes wrong, you have to coordinate a target swap mid-fight.

A more stable strategy is the one where all members swap targets, but remain standing in the same place. Thus, Zorn will initially be on the left, Toth on the right. After the leap, Toth is on the left, then Zorn on the right. The problem with this strategy is it means the tank who starts on Zorn will end up getting all of Toth's frenzies, as well as the cone damage from Zorn. So, there's a lot more damage on that side. This is easily handled by letting the stronger spot healer handle that side, as well as biasing that side toward range.

With this strategy, there are no compositional assumptions. We one-shot this boss with all melee, all ranged, and mixtures in between using this strategy.
We run 16 mans only, and don't have any issues. Even if we have a melee heavy group, it usually consists of a couple marauders and in their case, they have leap that can swap with the tank/healer combo. I have done this in both 8/16 multiple times, and have tried several ways of doing the encounter, our way works best for our group.

I guess if you have lesser skilled players that cannot think on their own with regards to fearful, then I could see it being a problem having to co-ordinate a swap in the middle of a raid with the dps. Fortunately, we don't have that issue and things run smoothly throughout, even taking 7 trials on a run.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.15.2012 , 09:31 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by pure_laced View Post
I guess if you have lesser skilled players that cannot think on their own with regards to fearful, then I could see it being a problem having to co-ordinate a swap in the middle of a raid with the dps. Fortunately, we don't have that issue and things run smoothly throughout, even taking 7 trials on a run.
Actually, even with our strategy, you still have to be careful about fearful if you have halfway-decent DPS (since they will swap more frequently than once every 60 seconds). I'm glad your strategy works for you, it just sounds very chaotic to me. I've sat in on groups that attempted the boss this way. After about an hour of wiping, they switched to the strategy I outlined and downed the boss first try. Different strategies work better for different groups, I guess.
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Emlaeh's Avatar


Emlaeh
05.15.2012 , 12:01 PM | #9
Keep your tanks stationary. There are very few mechanics in the fight that require you to move. The exception is melee moving out of AOE/rocks, and of course, the red circle phase. Your tanks should never have to move if positioned correctly.

I see so many guilds unnecessarily running around like chickens with their heads cut off.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.15.2012 , 10:10 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Emlaeh View Post
Keep your tanks stationary. There are very few mechanics in the fight that require you to move. The exception is melee moving out of AOE/rocks, and of course, the red circle phase. Your tanks should never have to move if positioned correctly.
Actually, that's not strictly true. You need to keep the two bosses more than 25 meters apart, otherwise Fearful becomes a problem with rock throwing. However, the maximum range on single-target taunt is 30 meters. That's…very tight. I think it's definitely possible to have positioning like that, but I need to take a bit of time after the next time we clear that boss and measure a few distances in the arena. Our current positioning has the bosses nearly 45 meters apart, which creates a substantial delay when target swapping due to the time it takes the tanks to run 15 meters.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)