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Advice on Toth and Zorn HM

Bladeheart's Avatar


Bladeheart
05.09.2012 , 10:07 PM | #1
Hi,

Our guild recently tried Toth and Zorn and we seem to have a problem with healers keeping up the ops. I think this may be due to the positionings we use on the fight, one healer is dedicated to healing the ones on Toth(Merc Healer) and the Other healer (Operative) is dedicated the ones on Zoth.

The problem arises when we have 1 or 2 melee in the group since the Merc seems unable to keep up with the damage on the tank and the melee on Toth. We ask the operative healer to help out, but I'd love to know where to ideally place the healers to minimize movement and maximize the healing. We usually have Toth near the mouth of the cave and Zorn near the trees at the back.

Enderet's Avatar


Enderet
05.09.2012 , 11:16 PM | #2
Imagine a V shape. The healers and ranged go at the bottom of the V. The trolls are tanked at the ends of the V. Good luck!

Talorra's Avatar


Talorra
05.09.2012 , 11:33 PM | #3
Are your melee eating cleaves? Not getting out of red circles? Not popping cooldowns or running out for Toth's berserk phase hits?

Any one of these will put unnecessary strain on your healers. All of them together will ensure a wipe. So when you say your healer is having trouble keeping the tank and melee up, check that your melee are doing their job by taking as little damage as possible. Ideally, they should only be taking the AoE hits and ground pound ticks. Most (all?) melee classes can spec to reduce AoE damage, and the damage ticks shouldn't be enough to push your healers into an unmanageable situation.
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Bladeheart's Avatar


Bladeheart
05.10.2012 , 03:59 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Talorra View Post
Are your melee eating cleaves? Not getting out of red circles? Not popping cooldowns or running out for Toth's berserk phase hits?

Any one of these will put unnecessary strain on your healers. All of them together will ensure a wipe. So when you say your healer is having trouble keeping the tank and melee up, check that your melee are doing their job by taking as little damage as possible. Ideally, they should only be taking the AoE hits and ground pound ticks. Most (all?) melee classes can spec to reduce AoE damage, and the damage ticks shouldn't be enough to push your healers into an unmanageable situation.
As far as the cleaves Im pretty sure they arent taking any of them. They're nicely positioned at the back of the boss. Same with Smash during the berserk phace. Im very vocal over vent so melee moves out.

Red circles on the AoE phase - that's where some of the raid members lag behind, I end up asking for our dps sorc to help top off people after this phase.

Hopefully we get to try out to position the healers in bottom of the V position as pointed out by the first one who replied.

In relation to that though, would the healers be also out of range of smash and zorn's rock throw?

yuvie's Avatar


yuvie
05.10.2012 , 04:32 AM | #5
healers(or other dds) actually HAVE to take the rock throw from zorn when toth is yellow, because if they dont then the tank will take those hits and it will be very though to keep him up.

as a healer, I pop personal cds and maybe some heal-cds(relic or adrenal) in this phase and cast my aoe-heal on me and the other healer, while he is doing the same.

the reason why the "V"-positioning is better than two camps is, that you can just use your aoe-heals on the ranged-camp and should not have to worry about ranged dds too much.

if you have a sniper in the raid, use his ballistic shield whenever the raid is low, either after the "red phase" or while zorn is throwing rocks.

also this is probably the most melee-unfriendly boss I've seen so far, so having your melees specc into 30% aoe-dmg-reduce can help alot on survivability and saving healers force/energy/heat.
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juleanden's Avatar


juleanden
05.10.2012 , 04:46 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Bladeheart View Post
Red circles on the AoE phase - that's where some of the raid members lag behind, I end up asking for our dps sorc to help top off people after this phase.
melees must not fail here, if they cant get reduced aoe dmg from talents they need to be sure they avoid the red, this is all that stands in your way to get them down. tank cant move to much or he will move the boss too close too raid or too close too the other boss, so tank might take some reds and if a melees ****sup and needs healer attentions(witch he have too do since you cant leave a melee in red phase with low hp) and tank gets unlucky your healer on that side is allrdy way behind and you will mostly likely lose either the melee or tank, so make sure your melees do it right, if you get this down i am sure your guild gonna figure your other questions by yourself(witch is more fun)

gl hf with it

borowmir's Avatar


borowmir
05.11.2012 , 05:14 PM | #7
Hey, first of all hopefully this tactics guide may help on it for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO43PqFv9uQ.

However...

We have the same problem - the reality is, melee get really hammered in this fight - and it's resulted in us converting our assassin DPS to a tank and our juggernaut DPS to a tank - simply because the jug can take a lot more damage with their cooldowns (plus there were some minor DPS benefits when we weighed it up).

Anyway - we've managed to down it with 2 melee DPS - it wasn't easy but a merc healer is looking like one of the best options for the melee side due to the rapid large heals - kolto cloud and kolto shell. Operative on the melee is also viable due to the quick heals available - i'd be tempted to keep the operative on the ranged though.

In terms of positioning of that melee healer - they really need to be in range of the healer from the ranged pack and just have to focus on healing the 3 in the melee group.

Unfortunately if your melee are a squishy class - you could be in trouble. Marauders and Juggernauts can cope due to the amount of damage they can heal/absorb/ignore. 2 Assassins would be unbearable without quite a decent amount of BH gear and unfortunately the fight may come down to a little bit of luck with a setup with 2 assassins in.

A big tip for you is for the melee. When approaching the berserk transitions (80% and 40%), anyone in melee who doesn't have a decent way of absorbing damage should move out a couple of % before berserk triggers so that they can miss the first jump of Toth. Bear in mind though that jumps occur around every 5% of Toths health so if Toth is at 84 and Zorn hits 80 first. Berserk will be triggered but you won't have a berserked jump for another 4%.

Hope that helps a little.

Therm
Elite Gaming
www.youtube.com/thermal8691

Bladeheart's Avatar


Bladeheart
05.14.2012 , 08:59 PM | #8
Thanks for all the help! We managed to down the boss in 2 attempts last night, so we're happy. We also did it without having to sub a ranged for the 2 melees in the group.

Having the two heals in the V position really helped out. I had the marauder pop up predation as well during the aoe phases just to make sure no one gets hit. Melee were on Toth and Ranged were on Zorn.

Now its time to worry about those damned tanks.