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Make Recruit Gear a Requirement to Queue

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Make Recruit Gear a Requirement to Queue

SneakyErvin's Avatar


SneakyErvin
05.11.2012 , 04:58 PM | #261
Quote: Originally Posted by criminalheretic View Post
That was my post to which you are referring, and no I do not have a lack of knowledge regarding the difference between expertise and non-expertise. I was trying to make 2 points.

1. Recruit gear is useless for PVE, because ALL it has is expertise, besides that it is worse than most lvl 47-49 blue gear. Saying it adds power and surge, so does PVE gear. I know, when you mouse over a piece of gear at a vendor, it will show you all of that... Trust me, the recruit gear was inferior to what I already had.

2. I dinged 50 on Sunday, and had full BM by Thursday. People keep saying Recruit gear is not expensive. "Expensive" is a matter of opinion, and IMO 330k for armor you are only going to wear for THREE DAYS, and ONLY in PVP, is too expensive.
Actually it wildly depends on class when it comes to the stats. Unless you want to spend several 100k upgrading your pve oranges you can just buy select pieces of recruit gear to run hard modes with. Recruit set+WH weapon is a very good start for both pvp and pve. Sure some classes doesnt have the luxory of good stat distribution, but some do. It also depends how fast you grind PvP, it lasts longer for some. Plus credits are expendable, you have absolutely no use for them in this game after hitting 50, except wasting it on stuff that doesnt really matter.
Ahahahahah!!

L-RANDLE's Avatar


L-RANDLE
05.13.2012 , 06:11 PM | #262
Quote: Originally Posted by SneakyErvin View Post
Flagging isnt enough to trigger expertise, learn it and stop arguing. You dont even check the posts I provide you with tests. You read what you like, just like the links to the sites you provided with the "4% difference between old and new BM expertise", when it was infact 7% units and roughly 30-33% increase.
Quote: Originally Posted by SneakyErvin View Post

Flagging isnt enough to trigger expertise, learn it and stop arguing.
Yes... I do check the links I post because I know EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAY...."EXPERTISE IS KING", but if you look at the provided equations (which is the only REAL value of those links), see what expertise does to your main stat/sec/end. Your right... Let’s stop arguing over when expertise triggers, because in really doesn’t matter when it is on and when it is off. This will be a long read(and I am sorry about that), but if you actually care SO much about people being “undergeared/not enough EXP” in PvP, then read it ALL. I am also sorry for the delay RL and mother’s day were priorities…
The heart of our debate and this thread is about:
"Does Expertise mean anything in PvP?" &
"Should people be FORCED to wear recruit gear or higher
Your Stance: YES & YES
Recruit~=Rakata(Maybe).....Because expertise means SO much, no way BM~=RAKATA
Quote: Originally Posted by SneakyErvin View Post
Not only do I deal 16.74% more damage to you while you wear PvE gear, but you deal 14.34% less to me aswell. Making the gap HUGE between PvP recruit gear and pretty much any PvE gear.
edit: And this comparison is between recruit gear and pve gear, the gap gets even bigger between BM gear and pve gear where stats are even higher. But where the gap is much smaller between recruit and BM. Just a few odd % difference while its up around 20%, 17% and 13% BM vs PvE gear.
Quote: Originally Posted by SneakyErvin View Post
Maybe if it was recruit vs rakata, maybe.

My Stance: TIER FOR TIER? NO & NO...
BM~=Rakata, so expertise don't mean squat, if you have the PvE equiv.
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post
Assuming main stats are the same? Yes.
Decreased main stats? Not so much..
Quote: Originally Posted by SneakyErvin View Post
As I posted earlier. I can make some proper PvP example of those too by just adding expertise and trauma.
With 12% expertise:
2980 becomes 2444, 3000 becomes 2460.
Without expertise:
2980 becomes 2086 and 3000 becomes 2100.
I would be dumb to argue you on this, it looks 100% accurate, but……
You used the same base numbers (2980/3000) for each of your calcs, and that is where our signals are getting crossed. There is NO way to get a 2980/3000 base in both calcs with the same tier gear. IT’S IMPOSSIBLE to get 12% EXP without sacrificing that 2980/3000 number (assuming this is the PvE baseline).

Let’s assume the trauma buff/expertise is on, since it is the only time we agree that both are active. Since you are opposed to the links of the screens I will explain each one in detail (even though they are still there if you/anyone wants to look). I am limiting this examination to a two-piece swap. BM for RAKATA, which you say is a significant decrease in PvP effectiveness. Here are the global buffs on ALL SCREENSHOTS: FORCE VALOR(+5%MAIN), FORCE MIGHT(+5%DB), RAKATA RESOLVE STIM.

Here I am with a RAK Stalker Bracer, and RAK Force-Master Relay Earpiece and Deliverance TT rating.
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...RAKATAEAR1.png
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...ATABRACER1.png
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...RRAKDELTT1.png
EXP=638(7.52% Heal Buff)
Deliverance on tooltip = 3132-3274
In about 2 hours of WZs……
Best heal hit: 2534(but I have a ton more screens with other values).
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...TORRAKHEAL.png

Here I am with a BM Stalker Bracer, and BM Force-Master Relay Earpiece and corresponding Deliverance TT rating..
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...WTORBMEAR1.png
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...RBMBRACER1.png
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...ORBMDELTT1.png
EXP=787(8.98% Heal Buff)
Deliverance on tooltip = 3112-3254
In about 2 hours of WZs……
Best heal hit: 2570(twice, but I have a ton more screens with other values).
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...WTORBMHEAL.png

Let’s look at it from a couple of different levels.

Fundamental Level 1:
BM Pieces (Deliverance on tooltip = 3112-3254): *.7898= 2458-2571 (*screenshot shows I almost hit the max according to the calc here and also shows that the tooltip is about right because I never hit anything outside of this range).

RAK Pieces (Deliverance on tooltip = 3132-3274): *.7752= 2428-2538 (*screenshot shows I almost hit the max according to the calc here and also shows that the tooltip is about right because I never hit anything outside of this range).

I swapped two, same tier pieces, and “gained” +1.46% EXP healing bonus, but lost 5.7 in Bonus Healing. Yes, there was a difference, but again, the MAXIMUM swing will be 32HP in this two-piece swap (as evident by the calc’d trauma debuff/EXP buffs and the tooltip values, which I think we agree on), so instead of the “1.46% gain,” it’s lower (more like 1.3% gain).
BM(MAX)= RAK(MAX)*1.013

Does the gap increase the more pieces you add? Even on a linear scale (remember this when we talk on the abstract level), where that type of exchange happens (~1:1), if I changed ALL 14 pieces, we are talking about a 224HP swing on healing. This is not game-changing.

If healing is this way, so is damage. The contributions are different, but the same tradeoff is there. It has a “higher percentage gain than healing”(+2.63% EXP damage), but it ALSO removes a corresponding amount of damage bonus. So on my BEST attack, this is the highest potential you can have (I’ll post the screens if you like).
BM Pieces (Force in Balance on tooltip = 1772 -1836): *1.164= 2063-2137
RAK Pieces (Force in Balance on tooltip = 1787-1851): *1.1377= 2033-2106
Again a ~32HP at a 2EA piece, tier for tier exchange (224HP@ 14 pieces). This is why I said…………………….
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post
Do you want 16% increase on 600 bonus damage or 700 bonus damage?
Because really that’s what it boils down to….

Same thing for mitigation. I lost 310HP for 1.98% increase in mitigation. If you play my BM toon , and I play my RAK toon, the 1.98% mitgation on my highest potential is 42HP difference TO you. It’s hard to quantify this, but I just don’t see how that change is worth 310HP. Especially when you introduce this…
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post
Here let’s assume trooper buff:
5% increase PvE gear= 12,474HP
5% increase PvPgear = 10,773HP
Now instead of 1620K difference; we are @ 1701K difference....
SAME THING FOR SMUGG BUFF, SAME THING FOR KNIGHT BUFF, ETC, ETC...
Assuming the trooper buff was on in my pics:
BM END: 1535
RAK END:1568
Now that HP loss is 330 for the same mitigation value you gain. Now factor in PvP medpaks operate on a 35% of your max HP. What is mitigation really doing for you?

Fundamental Level 2:
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post
Do you want 16% increase on 600 bonus damage or 700 bonus damage? That does not even account for contributions of main stat to crit rating.
BM Crit Rating: 24.58%
RAK Crit Rating: 24.78%
It's small, but this is just a two piece trade off. The 14 piece tradeoff will make this gap bigger, but in FAVOR of PvE gear… I am fairly confident EXP does not contribute to Crit rating. Even if you increase your output though expertise, the burst chance decrease in PvP does make it a tougher decision to choose (myself, I choose PvE/Crit rating because battles don’t last long enough for that small increase to matter (among other reasons to be named later)). In PvP, “BURST IS KING”…

Abstract Level 1:
As I stated in the fundamental levels, the difference is minor, but all of that assumes a 1 for 1 tradeoff. You also have to understand the more pieces you add, the less in contributes to all three PvP expertise stats (a simplified analysis: 1:1, 1:1.05, 1: 1.11, 1:1.22, 1:1.48, etc). This is what the “diminishing returns” was describing. It’s called exponential decay of a log(expertise) function. There are three equations that have exponential decay, expertise is one of them. While it changed in 1.2, I have shown it still means little, which the ONLY logical conclusion is Pre-1.2 PvP gear was a NERF, compared to its PvE breathren, tier for tier.

Abstract Level 2:
From a BiS standpoint? I guess that’s for another thread…
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post
And I agree too, but that is under the premise that they were adding in EXP to the mod/enh slots and not changing the base stats on anything else... So.... I now use the PvP mod/enhancements, so let’s use me versus you as an example:

Pre-1.2-I use RAK, you use BM
RAK MODS = BM MODS
RAK ENH = BM ENH
RAK ARMOR= BM ARMOR(????)
.....so the mods and enhancements are a wash, but still have 240HP and +18 main stat more per piece.

Post 1.2= I use RAK with BM MODS/ENH, you got a "buff" of 50EXP (if you kept your original mods, which was a bad joke for players like me).
RAK MODS = BM MODS
RAK ENH = BM ENH
RAK ARMOR= BM ARMOR(????)
.....so the mods and enhancements are a wash, but still have 240HP and +18 main stat more per piece.
So in the end, it STILL boils down to the damn armor slot. I still roll my rakata gear and enabled me not to HAVE to change gear to PvP. I have showed on all three levels its a nerf... that why I said they should have kept the armor slot locked and buffed it to +100EXP. If some at BW said expertise is better than PvE gear, yes it is, but since we can remove those same pieces, the root difference is still negligible for the loss of HP you have to take...
PvP Gear Viability? Read this first.
Tired of being broke? Stop being Felica and read this.
I'm not trying to be Rambo..... I'm trying to be Ray Tango

SneakyErvin's Avatar


SneakyErvin
05.14.2012 , 07:38 AM | #263
You are doing test with 1.5% units difference in expertise.

That doesnt show or prove anything.

Its when you have full gear vs full gear, a difference between 10% and 0%.

That 1.5% difference cant show anything viable at all, because the healing range on the spell itself is bigger than that, so for all we know the difference is purely random. You need to test with 0 and max expertise to get any viable info.

But your 1.5% is not a viable comparison.

edit: The only thing your screenshots prove is that you have no clue how to properly test things.

Also, the DR for crit, surge and all that starts much sooner than expertise, so you cant count on them diminishing at the same rate, which leave expertise gaining much more than the others at higher ratings.
Ahahahahah!!

ComeAndSee's Avatar


ComeAndSee
05.14.2012 , 07:42 AM | #264
I just leveled my Sage to 50.

Recruit gear is very adequate for starting off with absolutely no PvP gear. Really it's like lvl 49 gear with Expertise.
| Shayera Zhukov | Marshal of The Republic Army | Shield Vanguard | Jedi Covenant |

"It's not cheating unless you get caught."

KhalDrogoe's Avatar


KhalDrogoe
05.14.2012 , 08:18 AM | #265
Quote: Originally Posted by Foxrynn View Post
It's also disrespectful to think that people who don't buy the recruit gear are actually trying to hurt their teammates... I'm not going to lie, when I hit 50 I had barely 80k left after buying my skills for my rotation... Recruit gear is pretty expensive for a freshly hit 50. And keep in mind even if you waited 30 minutes to an hour to days, that person has waited JUST AS LONG AS YOU, and not only that, you were in the exact same boat as he or she was.
I was *never* in the same boat as them! When I hit 50 I had a champ bag in the bank, and 1k merc/wz comms to buy 5 more bags. Back then your first 50 didn't even HAVE the luxury of recruit gear. Now if I had the option of recruit gear and my BM MH as soon as I hit 50? You bet your bottom dollar I would've gathrered the money etc. from queues prior to hitting 50 so I was sure to have enough when I finally did hit 50.

L-RANDLE's Avatar


L-RANDLE
05.14.2012 , 08:20 AM | #266
Quote: Originally Posted by SneakyErvin View Post
You are doing test with 1.5% units difference in expertise.

That doesnt show or prove anything.

Its when you have full gear vs full gear, a difference between 10% and 0%.

That 1.5% difference cant show anything viable at all, because the healing range on the spell itself is bigger than that, so for all we know the difference is purely random. You need to test with 0 and max expertise to get any viable info.

But your 1.5% is not a viable comparison.
How is it not viable? Over all 14 pieces? If I did it over 1000 pieces the trade off would still be the same +EXP - DMG BONUS, and that still assumes a 1 for one trade. Not only is that true, but as I stated previously....
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post
You don't understand exponential decay. The "BUFF" was slightly changing a multiplier to the log function and adding EXP to the mod and enh slots on BM and higher/adding more EXP to Cent gear(called recruit now), BUT EXPONENTIAL DECAY IS STILL THERE POST 1.2. The more you stack the less it benefits (i.e. In 1.2, 450EXP= 10%, but 900EXP= 18% (instead of 20%; for example))
I can lead you to water, but I can't make you drink...
Do you want me to swap all 14? I THOUGHT these two pieces would be better simply because they are not moddable and ONLY have values controlled by BW.

Quote: Originally Posted by SneakyErvin View Post
edit: The only thing your screenshots prove is that you have no clue how to properly test things.

Also, the DR for crit, surge and all that starts much sooner than expertise, so you cant count on them diminishing at the same rate, which leave expertise gaining much more than the others at higher ratings
Please tell me how you would test it? You say I haven't posted anything of substance, but you haven't posted anything... Cmon, show me where I screwed up. I'll admit I'm wrong if you show me ANYTHING that directly refutes my statements, but you can't because you don't have a sage @50 and you don't have the PvE equivs..... I have given you all the info I can on this.... So now I will just give you the last word and move on. Ready? Go....
PvP Gear Viability? Read this first.
Tired of being broke? Stop being Felica and read this.
I'm not trying to be Rambo..... I'm trying to be Ray Tango

netskink's Avatar


netskink
05.14.2012 , 09:02 AM | #267
Quote: Originally Posted by V-Serp View Post
They could either not have the money or they do have the recruit gear and you just don't realize how low the HP is for it. Recruit gear is pretty useless. I constantly see people complain about 12-13k HP but that's full recruit gear HP.
I agree. I have yet to buy any recruit gear. Most of our games are huttball. I've maxed my medal count out more often than not using crafted pve 49 purples.

I would rather spend the cash on other things than throwaway gear. If you could buy the best gear in the game, I would consider it. But its so simple to get BM gear that its a waste of money.

Now I do think its funny when people come in with greens and blues that lvl 40 or lower. I kid you not, I saw a guy in lvl 50 pvp with a lvl 20 relic once.

I am editing this post to say a few more things.

Expertise will not help you do the following things:

o In huttball, when the ball carrier is a leaper, expertise will not prevent him from force leaping to you as you stand on the ledge.

o At any time, your cc/mezzzes/interrupts are not mitigated by expertise.

o Expertise does not help you jump the vents, or auto-pass for you..

o Expertise does not prevent you from being pushed into the fire, the pit or off the catwalk.

o Expertise does not enable you to detect stealth better. Likewise it does not make you more steatlhy.

o Expertise will not pop your cooldowns or relics. Nor will it tell you its time to get the buffs on the bg. It will not automagically cause you to use the ledges or catwalks.

o Expertise will not enable you to jump into a crowd of oppoents and stand in their aoe.

o Expertise will not change your keyboard turning into mouse turning.

o Expertise will not magically make you target the ball carrier or the healer with him. It will also not automatically cause you to seperate the tank using guard from his pal in some way.

I could go on and on.
50s Dapengzi, Wicked Wanda, Blind'Anma, Meiling, Xiaowan, Relee Lowbies Xiaojiejie, Tarheel Tank, The Wait, Tarheal 1xConquerer, 3xWH. 2xBM.
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NDiggy's Avatar


NDiggy
05.14.2012 , 09:16 AM | #268
Quote: Originally Posted by KhalDrogoe View Post
I was *never* in the same boat as them! When I hit 50 I had a champ bag in the bank, and 1k merc/wz comms to buy 5 more bags. Back then your first 50 didn't even HAVE the luxury of recruit gear. Now if I had the option of recruit gear and my BM MH as soon as I hit 50? You bet your bottom dollar I would've gathrered the money etc. from queues prior to hitting 50 so I was sure to have enough when I finally did hit 50.
Exactly. Why make things harder on yourself.
A countryman between two lawyers is like a fish between two cats. -
Benjamin Franklin

Navorski's Avatar


Navorski
05.14.2012 , 09:17 AM | #269
Quote: Originally Posted by netskink View Post
Now I do think its funny when people come in with greens and blues that lvl 40 or lower. I kid you not, I saw a guy in lvl 50 pvp with a lvl 20 relic once.
I just saw the same thing yesterday. The guy had a Gladiator title, had the BM chestpiece and the rest were mid 20s to 40 gear mostly greens. I asked him why he didn't bother to get the recruit gear or at least the level 40 stuff pvp gear and he said it didn't matter since all of his gear was boosted to level 49 anyway. To think of all those wasted warzone coms makes me sick when he said he had just dinged 50 and bought the chestpiece.

I just wish that the recruit stuff sold back at a decent price to the vendor compared to how much it costs. And for those that "can't afford" it I say quit being lazy and do some dailies. Within 2 days (3 hours of playtime) you can have the money for the set and you won't be so worthless. You won't be as good as people in full WH but you shouldn't be either considering they've put the time and effort into getting that gear. I wish they had had a starter set to purchase when I first started.

L-RANDLE's Avatar


L-RANDLE
05.14.2012 , 09:19 AM | #270
Quote: Originally Posted by netskink View Post
I agree. I have yet to buy any recruit gear. Most of our games are huttball. I've maxed my medal count out more often than not using crafted pve 49 purples.

I would rather spend the cash on other things than throwaway gear. If you could buy the best gear in the game, I would consider it. But its so simple to get BM gear that its a waste of money.

Now I do think its funny when people come in with greens and blues that lvl 40 or lower. I kid you not, I saw a guy in lvl 50 pvp with a lvl 20 relic once.

I am editing this post to say a few more things.

Expertise will not help you do the following things:

o In huttball, when the ball carrier is a leaper, expertise will not prevent him from force leaping to you as you stand on the ledge.

o At any time, your cc/mezzzes/interrupts are not mitigated by expertise.

o Expertise does not help you jump the vents, or auto-pass for you..

o Expertise does not prevent you from being pushed into the fire, the pit or off the catwalk.

o Expertise does not enable you to detect stealth better. Likewise it does not make you more steatlhy.

o Expertise will not pop your cooldowns or relics. Nor will it tell you its time to get the buffs on the bg. It will not automagically cause you to use the ledges or catwalks.

o Expertise will not enable you to jump into a crowd of oppoents and stand in their aoe.

o Expertise will not change your keyboard turning into mouse turning.

o Expertise will not magically make you target the ball carrier or the healer with him. It will also not automatically cause you to seperate the tank using guard from his pal in some way.

I could go on and on.
Other reasons why expertise matters very little in PvP, besides the pure math aspect? I better take off my PvE gear, and get my 18% damage bonus from recruit.
PvP Gear Viability? Read this first.
Tired of being broke? Stop being Felica and read this.
I'm not trying to be Rambo..... I'm trying to be Ray Tango