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Dear Mr. Zoeller


DarkDruidSS's Avatar


DarkDruidSS
05.02.2012 , 06:42 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by cerberias View Post
Because you totally need tank gear to fill a tank role. I do your job except I actually do damage.



If cull gets defended, sure, thats great, if it gets shielded only the white damage portion gets mitigated, the internal damage does not. Its the same with Mara's/Sents and their dots, sure you might negate some of the white damage but the DoT is still going to be ticking on you for the full amount.

Either way, tanks rarely get focus fired, and guard damage can't be avoided by shields/defence. You're there to mitigate damage to other people and I, in my DPS gear, can do that exactly the same as you can in full tank gear - only difference is that I'm beating the **** out of the guy hitting my guarded target compared to you doing like half the damage.
Curious here, have you tested a full BM tank set vs a DPS set while specced as a tank? Do you know the exact difference? It's minimal. You aren't bursting anything down in DPS gear as a tank. Sure you do higher damage over time with DPS gear, but this isn't PvE... you're not whacking a mob for 5 mins to get the advantage. PvP is about burst... tanks don't have burst not even in DPS gear.

It's posts like yours that give people the false assumption that tanks need to be nerfed in PvP. It's posts like these that make people think the higher damage stats at the end of the match was because the tank did burst... no, the tank did slightly higher damage in DPS gear over time and his survivability enabled him to stay up longer which meant he had more time doing damage than a DPS that can pull similar or higher numbers with less up time.
Beatrush - 50 Assassin | Satellitebeam - 50 Sniper
Katastrophe - 41 Powertech | Ømnislash - 34 Marauder
Highwind - 29 Commando | ßraver - 23 Sentinel
Finalheaven - 21 Sage | Bigbrawl - 14 Scoundrel

BDutch's Avatar


BDutch
05.02.2012 , 06:46 AM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Zorion View Post
When you put guard on someone, that dmg will always hit your shield.
Quote: Originally Posted by cerberias View Post
Either way, tanks rarely get focus fired, and guard damage can't be avoided by shields/defence.
Quote: Originally Posted by Dmasterr View Post
I do, it completely nullifies marauder and sniper crit chance over time, and then some.
Quote: Originally Posted by cerberias View Post
Psst, shield chance doesn't negate crit, it negates hits. If a crit is rolled it cannot be shielded/deflected.
Up is down, left is right, cats and dogs, I'm so confused!
Originally Posted by Puja
The sentinel PVP armor is PINK and POOP colored with golden ******* and a clown helmet my brain is not able to make any sense out of. Then some sort of giant bug from the Jetsons has attached itself to the left shoulder.

ssbi's Avatar


ssbi
05.02.2012 , 06:54 AM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Dmasterr View Post

Want details because you can't see it yourself? fine i will list the most effective WZ where it can be done.

Hutball get ball first and defend it all game in your pit.
Voidstar group between doors.

go with 3 healers 2 tanks and 3 dps who can offheal /offtank. You can't kill the healers or tanks (if they wear tank gear).

However if the tanks are dumb enough to wear dps gear u can focus fire them down in bursts.


I let u chose all classes on both sides as long as the roles i stated can be fufilled.
Okay that team meets the mirror team with Shadow/Sins tanks with dps gear apart of 2-3 parts of tanking gear for knockdown cool down reduce, which leads to the random factor who had the ball first or who started first as defender in voidstar, which makes an argument pretty bold because in that way you just pointing out that there is no really big difference of tanking gear and dps gear.

ssbi's Avatar


ssbi
05.02.2012 , 07:01 AM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by BDutch View Post
Up is down, left is right, cats and dogs, I'm so confused!
2nd and 4th are true.

cerberias's Avatar


cerberias
05.02.2012 , 07:43 AM | #55
Quote:
Curious here, have you tested a full BM tank set vs a DPS set while specced as a tank? Do you know the exact difference? It's minimal. You aren't bursting anything down in DPS gear as a tank. Sure you do higher damage over time with DPS gear, but this isn't PvE... you're not whacking a mob for 5 mins to get the advantage. PvP is about burst... tanks don't have burst not even in DPS gear.

It's posts like yours that give people the false assumption that tanks need to be nerfed in PvP. It's posts like these that make people think the higher damage stats at the end of the match was because the tank did burst... no, the tank did slightly higher damage in DPS gear over time and his survivability enabled him to stay up longer which meant he had more time doing damage than a DPS that can pull similar or higher numbers with less up time.
Well, what damage numbers do you put out? My overhead slash regularly hits for 1.6-2k crits for closer to 3.5k, Blade Storm has close to 100% crit rate and crits for at least 3k, usually more. I've gotten over 5k overhead slash crits in this spec, and close to that with Blade Storm though these are fairly rare due to how the stacking buff works for Guardians. Now I haven't had a full tank set since Champion gear (That being said I'm only 2pc battlemaster w/ BM wep currently as I've been playing my Scound healer) but the main difference wasn't in the base hits it was the crit chance/surge. Sure I was probably hitting 300-400 less in tank gear (per non-crit) but with a lot less crit/surge/accuracy etc.. your damage is a lot lower.

pwnshoppe's Avatar


pwnshoppe
05.02.2012 , 07:47 AM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkDruidSS View Post
Curious here, have you tested a full BM tank set vs a DPS set while specced as a tank? Do you know the exact difference? It's minimal. You aren't bursting anything down in DPS gear as a tank. Sure you do higher damage over time with DPS gear, but this isn't PvE... you're not whacking a mob for 5 mins to get the advantage. PvP is about burst... tanks don't have burst not even in DPS gear.

It's posts like yours that give people the false assumption that tanks need to be nerfed in PvP. It's posts like these that make people think the higher damage stats at the end of the match was because the tank did burst... no, the tank did slightly higher damage in DPS gear over time and his survivability enabled him to stay up longer which meant he had more time doing damage than a DPS that can pull similar or higher numbers with less up time.
I have plenty of burst as a tank. Plus you should be focusing a target. If needed I can pop out a got 8K in 2 gcds. No need for tank gear, the baseline defensive stats from talents are enough to get you 90% of your survivability. The rest comes from gear and isn't worth it, in exchange for the 30% boost to damage.

BambulaGTS's Avatar


BambulaGTS
05.02.2012 , 08:27 AM | #57
If you want some extreme point in one department you need to give up a bigger numbers in another department.

Wanna do ok damage and ok survivability? Go DPS gear and tank spec. Wanna have more survivability (e.g. maximizing dat thing to extreme)? You will give up a lot more in damage than you gain in survivability. Wanna do much more damage? No problem but you will give up much more survivability for each additional virtual point of damage (cause you will need to spec "DPS" talent tree than).

Consider it "diminishing return" for min/maxing something.

cerberias's Avatar


cerberias
05.02.2012 , 06:34 PM | #58
Just compared my pvp dps gear (mostly champ) to my pve tank gear (full rakata remodded). I lose 15% damage from crits alone (counting surge/crit), and 300+ tooltip damage on all of my abilities. The gap would be even further if my gear was of the same quality but as rakata has a hell of a lot more stats than champ/bm its lot closer than it should be - (my str was the same in dps gear compared to the tank gear without stim).

While not as large as I imagined, its still a good 20% less damage at least - probably closer to 25-30% with equal gear levels.

Azrienov's Avatar


Azrienov
05.02.2012 , 11:58 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by Dmasterr View Post

Of course it doesn't counter it directly, BUT :

If 40% of his attacks hit you for 200% damage and 50% of his attacks hit you for 50% damage and the added endurance, over time it basically cancels his crit chance.


Oh, and +defense stat is not worth it, since everybody is pigeonholed into choosing accuracy on their gear.

Also don't forget that tank cooldowns scale better with tank gear.
Well... for one thing, no it doesn't. Because you're assuming he's hitting you with attacks that be shielded.

Second, those critical hits are carving you up. On top of that, he can reduce your shield chance by increasing his crit chance. Crit pushes shielding off the table. He'd have to pop his tricks to pull it off, but if explosive fuel pops, and he boosts his critical to 65% with railshots... you're going to get hurt. Thats more of an issue with the two roll system then shields though.

Azrienov's Avatar


Azrienov
05.04.2012 , 04:07 PM | #60
The thread has had some interest in it, which is nice, though not all of it is on target. I'll take it though. I still feel an explanation or compromise should be implemented.

For example, tech cleansing can't cleanse force effects. Force cleansing can't cleanse tech effects.

Why not allow tech users to shield tech effects, and force users to shield force effects? This would refine the number of attacks that are highly effective against a shield tank, and still give particular "hard counters" to classes in the game.